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Eternal
03-07-2011, 05:55 AM
GARCHOMPhttp://images.wikia.com/pokemon/images/5/52/GarchompSprite.pnghttp://pokemon.neoseeker.com/w/i/pokemon/2/2a/Garchomp_male_sprite_dp.pnghttp://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen4/platinum_action/445.png


Recently Garchomp has been the most threatening and game changing Pokemon of the 5th generation. In this thread post your views on Garchomp and whether you believe if it's a potential suspect.


Type - http://pokemon.marriland.com/images/rs/assorted/t_drg.png/http://pokemon.marriland.com/images/rs/assorted/t_grd.png
Ability - Sand Veil: Sand Veil increases the evasion of a Pokémon by 20% in a sandstorm and if on a Pokémon whose type does not already, grants immunity to damage taken from sandstorms.

HP: 326 - 420
Attack: 238 - 394
Defense: 175 - 317
Sp.Atk: 148 - 284
Sp.Def: 157 - 295
Speed: 188 - 333

Only the following most popular used Pokemon in the Wifi tier out speed Garchomp:
- Gengar = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp
- Excadrill w/ Sand Power + Sandstorm - Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp on Yacheless Garchomp
- Latios
- Starmie = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp, unless Ice Beam on Yacheless Garchomp
- Infernape = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp, unless HP Ice on Yacheless Garchomp
- Thundurus = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp, unless HP Ice on Yacheless Garchomp
- Jolteon = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp, unless HP Ice on Yacheless Garchomp
- Landorus = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp, unless HP Ice on Yacheless Garchomp
- Mienshao = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp, unless HP Ice on Yacheless Garchomp
- Espeon = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp
- Terakion = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp
- Aerodactyl = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp
- Deoxys-S = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp, unless Ice Beam on Yacheless Garchomp
- Virizion = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp, unless HP Ice on Yacheless Garchomp
- Latias
- Weavile = Is unable to revenge kill Yache Garchomp
- Azelf = Is unable to revenge kill Garchomp

As you can see, almost nothing is a good revenge killer against Garchomp. Many Garchomps also carry Substitute, which it Substitutes on slower and bulkier Pokemon to take advantage of the Sand Veil + Brightpowder. Meaning it's almost certain you're going to lose something in a game. While even revenge killing becomes immensely hard when a Garchomp is under Substitute. And very frustrating when there's also Sandstorm in the field.

Possible counters?

Here's what a standard Jolly Garchomp with 252 EVs in Atk with Brightpowder or Yache Berry would do vs...

Ferrothorn (Sassy 252HP/252SpDef) - Swords Dance + Earthquake = 73.3 % - 86.4% (100% 2HKO)
Ferrothorn (Impish 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Fire Fang = 96.6% - 113.6%
Gliscor (Impish 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 68% - 80.5% (100% 2HKO)
Reuniclus (Bold 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 80% - 94.4% (Almost OHKO)
Gyarados (Impish 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 83.3% - 98.2% (100% OHKO with SR up)
Skarmory (Impish 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Fire Fang = 48.5% - 57.5% (Possible 2HKO)
Swampert (Relaxed 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 75% - 88.4% (Almost OHKO)
Hippowdon (Impish 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 60% - 70.7% (100% 2HKO)
Zapdos (Bold 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 81.5% - 96.4% (100% OHKO with SR up)
Bronzong (Relaxed 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Fire Fang = 54.4% - 64.5% (2HKO'd)
Suicune (Bold 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 63.4% - 75% (100% 2HKO)
Chansey (Bold 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 73.7% - 86.9%
Donphan (Impish 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 64.8% - 76.6%
Slowbro (Bold 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 67% - 79.2%
Cresselia (Bold 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 56% - 66.2%
Quagsire + Unaware (Impish 252HP/252Def) - Outrage (ability neglects boosts) = 39.9% - 47%

The above statistics show how much Garchomp does to these Pokemon while these Pokemon are at there full defensive limit. As you can see, other than Quagsire, not one of the Pokemon can successfully take more than 2 hits after Garchomp has Swords Danced. While you may say that at least these Pokemon are capable of taking 1 hit from Garchomp. Well then you're wrong, you neglected the other factors. You neglected Garchomp's incredible bulk. Lets see what these Pokemon can do to counter Garchomp when Garchomp has Swords Danced:

Garchomp with 0 EVs in HP or Def or SpDef

Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball does = 44.7% - 52.8% (Not even a reliable 2HKO)
Gliscor's Ice Fang does = 52.5% - 62.6% and w/ Yache Berry does 26.3% - 31.3%
Reuniclus' Psychic does = 37.7% - 44.7%
Gyarados' Waterfall does = 30.5% - 36.3%
Skarmory's Brave Bird does = 31.3% - 37.2%
Swampert's Ice Beam does = 76% - 90.5% and w/ Yache Berry does 38% - 45.3%
Hippowdon's Ice Fang does = 60.3% - 71.5% and w/ Yache Berry does 30.7% - 35.8%
Zapdos' HP Ice does = 78.2% - 92.7% and w/ Yache Berry does 39.1% - 46.4%
Bronzong's HP Ice does = 48% - 57% and w/ Yache Berry does 24% - 28.5%
Suicune's Ice Beam does = 80.5% - 95% and w/ Yache Berry does 40.2% - 47.5%
Chansey's Ice Beam does = 40.2% - 48% and w/ Yache Berry does 20.1% - 24%
Donphan's Ice Shard does = 40.2% - 48% and w/ Yache Berry does 20.1% - 24%
Slowbro's Ice Beam does = 88.3% - 103.9% (25% chance of OHKO) and w/ Yache Berry does 44.1% - 52%
Cresselia's Ice Beam does = 69.3% - 82.7% and w/ Yache Berry does 34.6% - 41.3%
Quagsire's Ice Beam does = 62.6% - 72.7% and w/ Yache Berry does 31.3% - 36.9%

Well now you can see how bulky Garchomp is. This beast can take Hidden Power Ices and Ice Beams so easily with those statistics there, and with Yache Berry it's even more dangerous in taking it's only x4 weakness with ease. Now you're probably wondering, well at least I'm able to Whirlwind/Roar this thing out with my Skarmory or Gyarados before it further sweeps my team or I'm able to Slack Off/Recover and not let 1 SD Garchmp sweep me with Outrage as I can hope for some confuse hit luck. Well you're still wrong then, because you haven't even taken into account Garchomp's deadliest trait, Sand Veil, it's ability to EVADE YOUR MOVES. And enhanced with Brightpowder, the chances of you touching its godly presense is greatly diminished.

*Garchomp is able to Substitute a total of 4 times on any of those "probable" counters you send in. And a total of 5 times when carrying Leftovers.

What's the probabilty of touching Garchomp when it's under Sandstorm?

Well, if your move is a 100% accuracy move, then your chances of touching a Brightpowderless Garchomp such as a Garchomp carrying Leftovers is 80%. But hey, Garchomp can use its Substitute move for more chances to evade your Ice Beam or HP Ice or Whirlwind or whatever the pathetic move you have against it. The chances of you hitting it again now diminishes to 0.8^2 = 64%. And Garchomp can Substitute its 3rd time if you hit, which further diminishes your chances of hitting it to 0.8^3 = 51.2%. And you're really lucky with that coin flip, Garchomp can just say ***** please and ruin take the flip in it's advantage and diminish your chances of touching it a 4th time with another Substitute, chances are only 40.96% of hitting it again. But hey, you're probably a lucky fellow and hit through all of those Substitutes, Garchomp says "cool story bro" to you and Substitute again because of all the Leftovers recovery it had been recovering from, so your chances of touching it now is 32.8%. You're one lucky fellow if you hit it through all of that, but hey you haven't beaten Garchomp yet. Because now you'll have to go for another shot at touching it to actually beat it, so you're final chance is now 26.2%, which is almost a one-fourth of a chance. That's like the chances of you calling heads and you flip a coin and get heads twice.

Heck, that's just Garchomp with Leftovers. Your chances are even less of touching Garchomp when it's holding Brightpowder. See for yourself:

- Chance of a 100% accuracy move touching a Brightpowder Gachomp under Sandstorm: 1 x 0.8 x 0.9 = 0.72 = 72% chance
- Chance of hitting it again after Substitute = 0.72^2 = 51.84%
- Chance of hitting it a 3rd time = 0.72^3 = 37.3%
- Chance of hitting it a 4th time = 0.72^4 = 26.87%
- Chance of hitting it a final time to beat it = 0.72^5 = 19.35%

Yea, good luck mate, have fun getting lucky at beating a Garchomp. Garchomp will just laugh all over you... and don't cry when it does just like the 9235 other people I've swept with it with ease.

MikeDecIsHere
03-07-2011, 06:10 AM
To be honest, Garchomp really isn't the biggest problem. Ferrothorn can wall it, along with Skarmory and Bronzong (for Garchomps that lack Fire Fang)

The biggest problem is the legal usage of Brightpowder. Without Brightpowder, Garchomp really isn't all too terrifying. Scarf sets can be walled with prediction, and Swords Dance variants will be out sped by other Scarfed Pokes, including some threats like Latios. Sure Sand Veil sucks, but Sand Veil + Brightpowder is ridiculous.

Eternal
03-07-2011, 06:19 AM
To be honest, Garchomp really isn't the biggest problem. Ferrothorn can wall it, along with Skarmory and Bronzong (for Garchomps that lack Fire Fang)

The biggest problem is the legal usage of Brightpowder. Without Brightpowder, Garchomp really isn't all too terrifying. Scarf sets can be walled with prediction, and Swords Dance variants will be out sped by other Scarfed Pokes, including some threats like Latios. Sure Sand Veil sucks, but Sand Veil + Brightpowder is ridiculous.

False, Garchomp with SD can possibly 2HKO Ferrothorn with Earthquake even if it lacks Fire Fang. While it can 2HKO Skarmory and Bronzong with 2 SDs (which isn't that hard to obtain with evasion). I'm defeated Skarmorys and Bronzongs easily before with Garchomp and Outrage alone due to the 72% evasion Garchomp gets from Sand Veil and Brightpowder. While Fire Fang is very popular on many SD Garchomps which can easily 2HKO Bronzongs and Skarmorys after 1 SD. While Bronzong's HP Ice fails to come close OHKO'ing Garchomp. While Skarmory can only Whirlwind away Garchomp. All fail to counter Garchomp.

Ciele
03-07-2011, 02:45 PM
Ferrothorn can't wall a Garchomp that has Swords Dance. Ferrothorn will be beaten by two +2 Earthquakes and it certainly can't OHKO Garchomp. It will be lucky to even break Chomp's Substitutes if Sandstorm is up (even without Brightpowder 9.9), let alone actually beat it. Running both Sub and SD does make dealing with Bronzong and Skarmory a little more difficult, but it is usually worth it.

steel dragons
03-07-2011, 05:18 PM
Ok, some small nitpicks. You should mention Ice Beam for Starmie and Deoxys-S instead of HP Ice, though both have the same result.

You make a compelling argument here. I wonder if it has been brought up on smogon.

Eternal
03-07-2011, 07:20 PM
Ok, some small nitpicks. You should mention Ice Beam for Starmie and Deoxys-S instead of HP Ice, though both have the same result.

You make a compelling argument here. I wonder if it has been brought up on smogon.

Oh right, I was pasting too much.

Dimes
03-08-2011, 01:25 AM
Outrage Reflect Mew

Good game

Eternal
03-08-2011, 01:50 AM
Outrage Reflect Mew

Good game

Garchomp is faster than Mew, good game.

Tastelesshat
03-08-2011, 02:20 AM
I personally think we should let the metagame settle down a little more before we go ahead and do testing, but it is definitely worth considering at this point.

DDwhiscash
03-08-2011, 04:33 AM
Dey-ja-vu................ where have I seen this before... oh 4th Gen... We all know how this ends... Chomp more than likely gets banned because it's just way too far out on beast mode on-ness..Oh well I got my fair share of usage out of it. Being perfectly honest I do feel as though it should be banned. It has incredible bulk, speed and attack to add it is evasive. With or without Bright Powder Chomp can sometimes be a pain in the arse to hit. Garchomp is powerful enough to 2hko (3hko at the least) what usually counters or checks. It also can decimate late game. .. Please... save yourself the complaints later on down the road and ban this thing... I'm here watching people ride games off of luck instead of skill (Eternachomp I'm looking at you since all it takes is a miss or two and your team is dust and bones). The base speed is also weird if I may add, it outspeed's base 100s with a + Nature and can skyrocket it's attack thanks to SD. Can we just get to the part where Garchomp get's banned? We all saw this coming from the begging of the meta-game.

Lovat
03-08-2011, 04:09 PM
I'm struggling to think of any Pokemon that can effectively switch into Garchomp and then proceed to take it down. At least without knowing if it's scarf'd, even then there aren't many Pokemon that can live 2 Outrages from Garchomp and then kill it.

For me, that defines Garchomp as Uber. Until then, I will be abusing Garchomp, and relying on my own Scarf Garchomp to check and revenge kill any others.

Eternal
03-08-2011, 07:48 PM
I have now added statistics. Now we can clearly see Garchomp's raw power.

Dimes
03-08-2011, 08:49 PM
Don't bother posting (Almost OHKO), as if they aren't OHKO'd, they are XHKO'd. There is no almost.

Garchomp is doing exactly what it was doing in 4th gen when it overcentralized the game, but to a lesser extent. Even in a metagame where hitting hard is the top priority, Garchomp shifts it to a game that also requires a lot of Choice Scarf use or the use of Pokemon that really can't hit hard outside of Garchomp (Starmie is a prime example). In such a game, no one can afford to lose a Pokemon or take too many hits, which is what a Choice Item usually does. Also, note how almost all of Garchomp's checks are almost always walled by Tyranitar or Nattorei. Latios usually uses Hidden Power Fire to deal with Nattorei and Quagsire can almost always deal with Tyranitar.

99.7% - 118%

Is what a Quiet Expert Belt Tyranitar does to 252/0 Quagsire with Hidden Power Grass. I've never tried using Hidden Power Grass on Tyranitar, but this is just to prove that Garchomp's weaknesses are also way too easy to cover.

Dimes
03-08-2011, 09:33 PM
Yea, good luck mate, have fun getting lucky at beating a Garchomp. Garchomp will just laugh all over you... and don't cry when it does just like the 9235 other people I've swept with it with ease.

Going to note that eternal has too much time on his hands

lapras6666
03-08-2011, 09:42 PM
In the defensive calcs, when you are refering to Zapdos, do you mean offensive or defensive?

Dimes
03-08-2011, 10:04 PM
Zapdos (Bold 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 81.5% - 96.4% (100% OHKO with SR up)

I WONDER WHAT IT MUST BE

steel dragons
03-08-2011, 11:24 PM
I guess then a good counter to Garchomp would be a lot of Rain abusers under Rainy conditions, since they would be faster than Garchomp and Garchomp wouldn't have the evasion boost. also, Sun could work, but Rain probably works better in general anyway.

Eternal
03-09-2011, 12:00 AM
I guess then a good counter to Garchomp would be a lot of Rain abusers under Rainy conditions, since they would be faster than Garchomp and Garchomp wouldn't have the evasion boost. also, Sun could work, but Rain probably works better in general anyway.

Not really, they wouldn't be considered "counters," they would be considered revenge killers. And Garchomp, neglecting the rain/sun speed boost, can easily OHKO them. As weather isn't a solution to its problem. Rain/Sun can always be taken out by Sandstorm, and obviously any team that abuses Garchomp will carry Sandstorm. You're in trouble when it is.

Tastelesshat
03-09-2011, 12:15 AM
Saying you need entire teams to defeat Garchomp is kinda against your point

Eternal
03-09-2011, 02:12 AM
Saying you need entire teams to defeat Garchomp is kinda against your point

I never said that, if you're asking me.

Mig
03-09-2011, 03:03 AM
I never said that, if you're asking me.

He meant Steel's...

Tastelesshat
03-09-2011, 03:03 AM
I was talking about Steel Dragons, sorry

EDIT: **** ninjas

Eternal
03-21-2011, 06:24 AM
So, has anyone's opinion on Garchomp changed?

Dimes
03-21-2011, 07:55 PM
No. Ban it.

DC
03-22-2011, 04:49 AM
Ban this ******* and do it quick.


Stupid land sharks

lapras6666
03-22-2011, 07:09 AM
Zapdos (Bold 252HP/252Def) - Swords Dance + Outrage = 81.5% - 96.4% (100% OHKO with SR up)

I WONDER WHAT IT MUST BE

No, I meant on the calcs that Garchomp takes the hits (I think those as defensive).

DDwhiscash
03-22-2011, 03:57 PM
ban this mofo!!!

Ciele
03-24-2011, 01:55 PM
Ban Sand Veil, not Garchomp.

Although that would essentially be banning Chomp right now, it will be fine for standard play once it gets it's Dream World ability.

DDwhiscash
03-24-2011, 04:18 PM
That's kinda what I was looking at. Rough Skin Chomp is nowhere and isn't as threatening since you could actually hit it. Speaking of which. Anyone use Rough Skin Chomp before?

Eternal
03-24-2011, 09:47 PM
Rough Skin Garchomp doesn't exist yet. No reason to mention it to this thread.

DDwhiscash
03-25-2011, 06:13 AM
Ok then, in that case, ban.

MikeDecIsHere
03-26-2011, 01:51 AM
Brightpowder is gone, and Eternal is in tears

Eternal
03-26-2011, 03:02 AM
Brightpowder is gone, and Eternal is in tears

Yea, this is blasphemy. I really don't think just banning Brightpowder is going to solve the problem with Garchomp. Just replace your Brightpowder with Leftovers and you have extra chance of evading moves due an extra Substitute from Leftovers recovery. 80% evasion from Sand Veil + Leftovers recovery + extra Substitute vs 72% evasion from Sand Veil + Brightpowder. Not much of a difference.

Tastelesshat
03-26-2011, 04:21 AM
However, if you're relying on sand veil only it means you have to use Tyranitar or Hippowdon. Still I think banning Sand Veil would've been a better option as the evasion chance is 20% compared to just 10% of brightpowder.

Eternal
03-26-2011, 06:21 AM
Tyranitar is everywhere this Gen. And you can't ban Sand Veil because that is Garchomp's only ability. As Rough Skin hasn't been released yet.

Dimes
03-26-2011, 05:29 PM
Even without Sand Veil, I still feel that Garchomp is Uber.

All it needs is just Haban Berry or Yache to take on it's supposed checks. Remember that Jolteon, Deoxys-E, ect are rarely used. Running Yache just leaves Latios to be taken care of and even then, it's pretty much Pursuit bait.