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Ciele
03-09-2011, 08:27 PM
Excadrill
http://www.arkeis.com/images/animations/530.gifhttp://www.arkeis.com/images/animations/530.gifhttp://www.arkeis.com/images/animations/530.gif

Excadrill - quite possibly the most centralising Pokemon in the B/W metagame today. Many feel that it is overpowered, others see it as a tad overrated, but nobody can deny that it's made a huge impact, and this thread is here to let your opinion on this controversial Pokemon known.

Type(s): Ground / Steel

Abilities:
Sand Rush: Doubles Speed in a Sandstorm, and makes the Pokemon immune to Sandstorm damage.
Sand Force: Raises the power of Rock, Ground, and Steel-type moves by 30% while a Sandstorm is in effect. It also gives the user immunity to damage from Sandstorm.
Mold Breaker (Dream World): Negates the effects of abilities that weaken or negate moves or the side-effects of moves.

Base Stats:

HP............: 110 (- / 361 / 424 / -)
Attack......: 135 (275 / 306 / 369 / 405)
Defense.....: 60 (140 / 156 / 219 / 240)
Sp. Attack..: 50 (122 / 136 / 199 / 218)
Sp. Defense: 65 (149 / 166 / 229 / 251)
Speed........: 88 (190 / 212 / 275 / 302)

Base Stat Total: 508

Level up moves:
Lv1: Scratch
Lv1: Mud Sport
Lv1: Rapid Spin
Lv1: Mud-Slap
Lv5: Rapid Spin
Lv8: Mud-Slap
Lv12: Fury Swipes
Lv15: Metal Claw
Lv19: Dig
Lv22: Hone Claws
Lv26: Slash
Lv29: Rock Slide
Lv31: Horn Drill
Lv36: Earthquake
Lv42: Swords Dance
Lv49: Sandstorm
Lv55: Drill Run
Lv62: Fissure
TM / HM moves:
TM01 - Hone Claws
TM06 - Toxic
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM21 - Frustration
TM26 - Earthquake
TM27 - Return
TM28 - Dig
TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM42 - Facade
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM48 - Round
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM56 - Fling
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM75 - Swords Dance
TM78 - Bulldoze
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM81 - X-Scissor
TM84 - Poison Jab
TM87 - Swagger
TM90 - Substitute
TM94 - Rock Smash
HM01 - Cut
HM04 - Strength
Egg moves:
Crush Claw
Earth Power
Iron Defense
Metal Sound
Rapid Spin
Rock Climb
Skull Bash
Submission

lapras6666
03-09-2011, 08:33 PM
DEFINETELY a threat. Never used it but definetely seems a huge threat. 130 base attack? SD to boost its attack to over 700? +2 speed right of the bat? Unresisted neutral coverage? HELL YESS!

THIS is why I always carry either Ferrothorn, Scrafty or Conkeldurr onto my teams.

MikeDecIsHere
03-09-2011, 08:42 PM
None of those are really that great of counters minus conkeldurr, but even then none of them can switch in on Excadrill.

Probably one of the biggest impacts Excadrill has had is the roll that Gliscor plays now. As opposed to 4th gen where Gliscor, mainly played an offensive pokemon, Gliscor has become a much more defensive Pokemon (Which suits Gliscor much better IMO)

Eos
03-09-2011, 09:41 PM
Very well said Mike.

Agreed on every part, especially seeing as Gliscor is really such a great wall and a counter to SS teams in general. Although, when Excadrill is holding Balloon in SS, it beats Gliscor with HP ice most of the time. If using a more specially bulky protect gliscor, then gliscor wins with ice fang the first turn and then EQ, but really be honest :p, who uses that?

All in all, Excadrill is a very good pokemon especially at +2 in SS, causing the Meta to change quite substantially.

inkredibul
03-09-2011, 10:31 PM
Never use it or see it much I usually could care less, but a bulky one seems like a big threat.

Eternal
03-09-2011, 11:00 PM
Never use it or see it much I usually could care less, but a bulky one seems like a big threat.

No, no one uses bulky Excadrill. You always want to do for power with this thing.

And in my opinion, I believe this thing is really overrated in power. It lacks strength to OHKO many bulky Pokemon. Here is a list of Pokemon that can handle Excadrill:

Nattorei - To an extent it can deal some damage to Excadrill and take a SD EQ pretty well. Not really a good counter.
Bulky Garchomp - Bulky Garchomps take Excadrill so easily.
Gliscor - Great counter, takes SD + Rock Slide very easily.
Reuniclus - Bulky ones can take a SD EQ pretty well and KO back with Focus Blast. Not a reliable counter though.
Skarmory - Can Brave Bird to take off Balloon. And can Whirldwind a SD'd Excadrill.
Burungeru/Vaporeon/Swampert - Bulky ones can live a SD EQ and KO back. Not a reliable counter though.
Hippowdon - Can take a SD EQ pretty well and KO back with EQ once Excadrill is out of Balloon.
Ninetales/Poltoed - Takes out the Sandstorm. Ninetales can easily KO it then with Fire Blast.
Cloyster - Very defensive, can take a SD EQ well and KO it back.
Rotom-w = Bulky or non-bulky it takes a SD Rock Slide really well and KOs back with Hydro Pump.
Randorusu - Takes a SD + Rock Slide pretty well and KOs back.
Bronzong - Can take any move after SD well and can KO back with EQ.

The list can go on. So we can see that Dory can be handled by many things. The biggest fear about it is its 30% flinch rate from Rock Slide, in my opinion.

Ducky
03-10-2011, 12:19 AM
Yeah the 30% flinch rate seems to flinch a lot more than 30% of the time.

Politoed is outsped even in rain and KO'd by an SD EQ.
If there is a bit of damage on Reuniclus, it gets taken out by an SD X-Scissor.
As far as Cloyster goes, I don't think anybody uses a bulky set anymore. If I see Cloysters at all, they all run offensive Shell Smash.

In the end, I agree with Eternal. The biggest problem with Dory is the flinches. Without them, a lot of things could fend Dory off. But even so, I **** my pants a little bit every time I see a Dory lol.

Tastelesshat
03-10-2011, 12:53 AM
I think that Dory doesn't really hold the same threatening power as Garchomp mainly because it's a one-trick mole that doesn't look like a pony. You only ever really see SD sets with balloons and Gliscor beats those and Gliscor is pretty much everywhere. Dory doesn't have any hax factor besides the 30% flinch rate from Rock Slide, which doesn't even have perfect accuracy. Tl;dr, I think Dory should definitely stay OU for now.

MikeDecIsHere
03-10-2011, 01:42 AM
A non boosted earthquake from doryuuzu fails to ko clyster after shell smash. Same with Rock Slide

DDwhiscash
03-10-2011, 02:57 AM
No, no one uses bulky Excadrill. You always want to do for power with this thing.

And in my opinion, I believe this thing is really overrated in power. It lacks strength to OHKO many bulky Pokemon. Here is a list of Pokemon that can handle Excadrill:

Nattorei - To an extent it can deal some damage to Excadrill and take a SD EQ pretty well. Not really a good counter.
Bulky Garchomp - Bulky Garchomps take Excadrill so easily.
Gliscor - Great counter, takes SD + Rock Slide very easily.
Reuniclus - Bulky ones can take a SD EQ pretty well and KO back with Focus Blast. Not a reliable counter though.
Skarmory - Can Brave Bird to take off Balloon. And can Whirldwind a SD'd Excadrill.
Burungeru/Vaporeon/Swampert - Bulky ones can live a SD EQ and KO back. Not a reliable counter though.
Hippowdon - Can take a SD EQ pretty well and KO back with EQ once Excadrill is out of Balloon.
Ninetales/Poltoed - Takes out the Sandstorm. Ninetales can easily KO it then with Fire Blast.
Cloyster - Very defensive, can take a SD EQ well and KO it back.
Rotom-w = Bulky or non-bulky it takes a SD Rock Slide really well and KOs back with Hydro Pump.
Randorusu - Takes a SD + Rock Slide pretty well and KOs back.
Bronzong - Can take any move after SD well and can KO back with EQ.

The list can go on. So we can see that Dory can be handled by many things. The biggest fear about it is its 30% flinch rate from Rock Slide, in my opinion.
^ that

pokemonisfun
03-10-2011, 03:19 AM
None of those are really that great of counters minus conkeldurr, but even then none of them can switch in on Excadrill.

Probably one of the biggest impacts Excadrill has had is the roll that Gliscor plays now. As opposed to 4th gen where Gliscor, mainly played an offensive pokemon, Gliscor has become a much more defensive Pokemon (Which suits Gliscor much better IMO)

Since when was Gliscor used offensively in fourth generation? I do not remember it running around sweeping teams with Swords Dance. Nearly all the Gliscor I see in fifth generation, and I admit I do not play much, still run max hp and speed to outspeed threats like Excadrill (outside of sand if you can catch it there) and still remain bulky enough to combat these threats. Gliscor rarely invested majorly in Defense in fourth generation instead focusing on Speed. To bo honest, I think Gliscor is more offensive this generation because some people actually use Swords Dance sweeping sets now, as baton pass Swords Dance would face too much competition in Mew.

MikeDecIsHere
03-10-2011, 03:45 AM
Nearly all the Gliscor I see in fifth generation, and I admit I do not play much, still run max hp and speed to outspeed threats like Excadrill (outside of sand if you can catch it there) and still remain bulky enough to combat these threats. Gliscor rarely invested majorly in Defense in fourth generation instead focusing on Speed. To bo honest, I think Gliscor is more offensive this generation because some people actually use Swords Dance sweeping sets now, as baton pass Swords Dance would face too much competition in Mew.

Actually, most only run 72 base speed in order to out speed Max speed Tyranitar (which I think Eevee is the only one that uses it). The Swords Dance set is popular, but this set is also quite popular:

Gliscor w/ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP; 184 Def; 72 Spe
-Protect
-Fling
-Acrobat
-Earthquake

Eternal
03-10-2011, 05:59 AM
Yeah the 30% flinch rate seems to flinch a lot more than 30% of the time.

Politoed is outsped even in rain and KO'd by an SD EQ.
If there is a bit of damage on Reuniclus, it gets taken out by an SD X-Scissor.
As far as Cloyster goes, I don't think anybody uses a bulky set anymore. If I see Cloysters at all, they all run offensive Shell Smash.

In the end, I agree with Eternal. The biggest problem with Dory is the flinches. Without them, a lot of things could fend Dory off. But even so, I **** my pants a little bit every time I see a Dory lol.

Even after a Shell Smash, a Rock Slide from a Dory does about 40% to it.


Actually, most only run 72 base speed in order to out speed Max speed Tyranitar (which I think Eevee is the only one that uses it). The Swords Dance set is popular, but this set is also quite popular:

Gliscor w/ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP; 184 Def; 72 Spe
-Protect
-Fling
-Acrobat
-Earthquake

Also, that set is terrible in my opinion. Fling just seems like a waste of a moveslot just to get a Pokemon poisoned, and you don't always poison your opponent due to it being steel or poison or magic gaurd or many other reasons. Take off Fling and Acrobat and give it Ice Fang and Swords Dance. You become a move threatening sweeper while being defensive, as well as being a great counter to Garchomps or other Gliscors or HP Ice-less Randorusu. And many other things. While Swords Dance will help you beat Roobushins one on one and even allow you to sweep late game sometimes. While you can still counter things Acrobat is made to counter, like Brelooms. It's just a better move to use as long as Garchomp remains OU.

Ducky
03-10-2011, 06:25 AM
Even after a Shell Smash, a Rock Slide from a Dory does about 40% to it.
I ran a damage calc and after a Shell Smash, Rock Slide hits 60-71% on the standard offensive Shell Smash set. With possible SR, Spikes, and Sandstorm damage, it could OHKO Cloyster.

Either that or I'm REALLY calculating incorrectly LOL. xD

MikeDecIsHere
03-10-2011, 02:01 PM
Fling just seems like a waste of a moveslot just to get a Pokemon poisoned, and you don't always poison your opponent due to it being steel or poison or magic gaurd or many other reasons. Take off Fling and Acrobat and give it Ice Fang and Swords Dance. You become a move threatening sweeper while being defensive, as well as being a great counter to Garchomps or other Gliscors or HP Ice-less Randorusu. And many other things. While Swords Dance will help you beat Roobushins one on one and even allow you to sweep late game sometimes. While you can still counter things Acrobat is made to counter, like Brelooms. It's just a better move to use as long as Garchomp remains OU.

Just for clarification, Flings main purpose isn't to poison Pokemon. It's mainly used to transform acrobat into a 110 Base Power attack with STAB. Personally, I run iconi-scor, but this set has had a lot of success.
As a side note, I personally run Taunt on my Iconiscor, but this isn't a Gliscor discussion.

Back to Excadrill, the only reason why this thing seems overrated is bacause it has been so hyped up that so many counters or checks have been defined. But realistically, Excadrill has the potential to sweep teams with its blinding speed in the sand and access to swords dance. Of course if balloon didn't exist, then the matagame would probably be drastically different, as Heatran and probably Terrakion's usage would be cut down since Excadrill wrecks them with their balloom gone.

Ciele
03-10-2011, 02:43 PM
And in my opinion, I believe this thing is really overrated in power. It lacks strength to OHKO many bulky Pokemon. Here is a list of Pokemon that can handle Excadrill:

Nattorei - To an extent it can deal some damage to Excadrill and take a SD EQ pretty well. Not really a good counter.

+2 Earthquake with Life Orb will almost always OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn and even if you're running Air Balloon or facing a Defense based Ferrothorn, Excadrill isn't being OHKO'd by Power Whip anyway.

Bulky Garchomp - Bulky Garchomps take Excadrill so easily.

+2 Earthquake 2HKOs even the bulkiest of Garchomp and Air Balloon prevents Chomp from doing significant damage in return.

Burungeru/Vaporeon/Swampert - Bulky ones can live a SD EQ and KO back. Not a reliable counter though.

LO Excadrill OHKOs both Jellicent and Vaporeon with +2 Earthquake after Stealth Rock. Nobody uses Swampert.

Hippowdon - Can take a SD EQ pretty well and KO back with EQ once Excadrill is out of Balloon.

Hippowdon is a little tricky for Excadrill, but even so, at +2 it can potentially 2HKO even the bulkiest of Hippowdon and of course avoids trouble with Air Balloon. Life Orb varients are crushed without a crit though.

Ninetales/Poltoed - Takes out the Sandstorm. Ninetales can easily KO it then with Fire Blast.

Ninetales is a decent check, but it is a huge risk to switch in against Excadrill as even +0 EQ will OHKO it. Politoed needs to be scarfed to deal with +2 Excadrill too and that has the same problem as Ninetales, since EQ is very likely to OHKO Politoed from Life Orb varients after Stealth Rock damage.

Cloyster - Very defensive, can take a SD EQ well and KO it back.

Nobody uses Cloyster. Although offensive versions are OHKO'd by +2 Excadrill anyway.

Rotom-w = Bulky or non-bulky it takes a SD Rock Slide really well and KOs back with Hydro Pump.

LO Excadrill OHKOs standard Rotom-w with +2 Return.

Randorusu - Takes a SD + Rock Slide pretty well and KOs back.

LO Excadrill OHKO's this with +2 Return too.

Comments in blue.

Gliscor, Skarmory and Bronzong are all solid enough so I left them out, as well as Reuniclus because that is down to a damage role iirc, but the rest of these are pretty shaky depending on Excadrill's held item. That's not to say that I think that Excadrill is broken (I don't think it is at all), but it's not as easy to deal with as you'd make people believe.

Eternal
03-10-2011, 05:22 PM
Yea, but you're mostly placing LO Excadrill there. LO Excadrill is much less threatening than Balloon Excadrill in my opinion, as you can't resist Earthquake from a bulky Pokemon like Gliscor. Nor can you beat a Balloon Excadrill that can easily revenge kill you.

steel dragons
03-10-2011, 05:56 PM
What about Toxic Orb + Mach Punch Breloom (with Poison Heal)? Could that work?

Eternal
03-10-2011, 06:14 PM
What about Toxic Orb + Mach Punch Breloom (with Poison Heal)? Could that work?

Not enough power to come close to a KO.

DDwhiscash
03-10-2011, 06:23 PM
He was serious about running that? Anyway, most people expect it to be Techloom. That being said it usually leads to a switch. So you could bring a Sub-punch Breloom in and hope your opponent takes the bait.

steel dragons
03-10-2011, 07:45 PM
In the Wi-fi tier though, Technican Breloom isn't allowed, so you would have to settle for Toxic Orb.

Wouldn't unboosted Conkeldurr's Mach Punch OHKO Excadrill though?

Eternal
03-10-2011, 08:04 PM
In the Wi-fi tier though, Technican Breloom isn't allowed, so you would have to settle for Toxic Orb.

Wouldn't unboosted Conkeldurr's Mach Punch OHKO Excadrill though?

Not at all. Most people forget about Excadrill's awesome bulk when taking 110 base HP into account.

Here's how much an unboosted Mach Punch from

Conkeldurr does: 63.81% - 75.41%
Breloom does: 60.5% - 71.27%

Ciele
03-11-2011, 10:56 AM
He was serious about running that? Anyway, most people expect it to be Techloom. That being said it usually leads to a switch. So you could bring a Sub-punch Breloom in and hope your opponent takes the bait.
TechLoom doesn't exist, so nobody expects it.

I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned Hitmontop as a counter yet. Even with Life Orb, Excadrill fails to OHKO 252/252 Hitmontop after Swords Dance (thanks to Intimidate) and of course Close Combat takes care of Excadrill. Technician varients counter it too with the combination of Fake Out and Mach Punch. Hitmontop is also the best Tyranitar counter in the game, so this isn't it's only use!

DDwhiscash
03-11-2011, 01:45 PM
TechLoom doesn't exist, so nobody expects it.

I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned Hitmontop as a counter yet. Even with Life Orb, Excadrill fails to OHKO 252/252 Hitmontop after Swords Dance (thanks to Intimidate) and of course Close Combat takes care of Excadrill. Technician varients counter it too with the combination of Fake Out and Mach Punch. Hitmontop is also the best Tyranitar counter in the game, so this isn't it's only use!

You know, now that you mention it, Hitmontop does seem like a fantastic counter. It can handle a lot of Pokemon in OU (well namingly T-tar and Steels but I digress). If only it got the Elemental Punches.

steel dragons
03-11-2011, 02:29 PM
Hitmontop has what it needs. It has Technican boosted Mach Punch, Pursuit, and Fake Out, as well as Hi Jump Kick, which is one of the best Fighting moves in the game right now. Hitmontop also has Rapid Spin, Bullet Punch, Stone Edge, Bulk Up, and it is actually an interesting Pokemon that could work in the OU environment.