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supergum1295
04-11-2011, 12:02 AM
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/65/Spr_5b_272_m.png
Ludicolo
Types: Water/Grass

Abilities:
Swift Swim: Doubles this Pokémon’s Speed in the rain.
Rain Dish: Restores 1/16 (6.25%) of this Pokémon’s maximum health during the rain.
Dream World: Own Tempo: Prevents confusion.

Base Stats:
HP: 80
Attack: 70
Defense: 70
Special Attack: 90
Special Defense: 100
Speed: 70

Overview:
Ever since its debut back in Generation III, Ludicolo has always used a Swift Swim Sweeper set as its main set. This is because its access to potent moves such as Hydro Pump, Grass Knot, and Ice Beam provided excellent coverage and a very good damage output. However, it has always remained in the average tiers (OU and UU) due to the time limit that Rain Dance provides in order to sweep, and the only permanent Rain Dancer was Kyogre, who was banished to Ubers, which it still dominates. Ludicolo was an incredible sweeper (and ironically, one of the top Kyogre counters in the game) in the Ubers metagame back in Generation IV. Why would a Pokémon like Ludicolo perform so much better in Ubers than in OU? The answer is simple. Ludicolo was free to do whatever it wanted for as long as it wanted because its partner (or opponent) carried the ability to summon permanent rain: Drizzle.

Fast-forward to 2010. Fans went into chaos when Dream World abilities were leaked to the general public. Pokémon that were never even considered to do anything in OU, such as Blaziken, Sableye, and Ditto, were taking the metagame by storm. Two the most controversial Dream World abilities were those of former NUs Ninetales and Politoed, wielding Drought and Drizzle respectively. These two abilities that were formally exclusive to Groudon and its brother version mascot Kyogre, two Pokémon that were strictly to be used in Ubers and nothing else. Politoed’s presence in OU made Rain Dance leads entirely obsolete, and Swift Swim Sweepers were considered undefeatable, even by Blaziken. Smogon caught wind of this and consequently banned the combination of Drizzle and Swift Swim to Ubers. Ludicolo, however, still stands strong due to its Rain Dish ability functioning as support for its SubSeed set, a set that spans 3 generations strong. With unlimited rain, Ludicolo can also make use of the double STAB that a Water-Type gets by using a Water-Type move, giving it the extra power that it needs to successfully wield Choice Scarves. It can also abuse this extra power and beef it up even more by using Choice Specs. The choice is yours to make, for it’s your Ludicolo that’s involved.

In Depth/Analysis:

Choice Scarf
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/65/Spr_5b_272_m.png@Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 Special Attack/252 Speed/4 Defense
-Hydro Pump
-Grass Knot
-Ice Beam
-Focus Blast

Set Comments:
This is your average coverage set that turns Ludicolo into a decent revenge killer. When Timid, Ludicolo’s speed with a Choice Scarf reaches a maximum of 393, capable of outrunning +1 Gyarados and Tyranitar and 2HKOing with Grass Knot and Focus Blast respectively. 393 Speed can also outrun all base 115 Speed Pokémon and below no matter their nature. Among these are Starmie, Gengar, and Serperior.

Hydro Pump is chosen over Surf because of the lack of a Special Attack-boosting Nature, and it helps to turn 2HKOs into OHKOs and 3HKOs into 2HKOs. It’s that critical little 5% to 10% that stops you from getting the number of damage you want. Grass Knot is preferred over Giga Drain because Ludicolo won’t be getting hit much, save by Bullet Punch or Extremespeed, and these moves don’t do much to it, plus their respective users are either 2HKOd (In the case of Dragonite) or OHKOd (in the case of Scizor) by Ice Beam and Hydro Pump. Ice Beam will always 2HKO Dragonite and OHKO Salamence and Garchomp, who resist both of Ludicolo’s STABs as well as Focus Blast, in the case of the former two. Anyway, with no investment in its below-average 80/70/100 defenses, Ludicolo won’t survive much if it gets hit hard a lot. Finally, Focus Blast is there for any Sand Stream party crashers (read: Tyranitar), and will always outspeed Choice Scarf variants no matter the nature and 2HKO.

Additional Comments and Team Options:
Ludicolo loves entry hazards, especially Stealth Rock. The entry hazard will turn Ice Beam into an OHKO on any Dragon, and allows Ludicolo to speed up the process of dispatching Tyranitar, ensuring a 2HKO on the Armor Pokémon.

Ludicolo is walled by both Kingdra and Ferrothorn, and Choice Scarf Latios outspeeds and 2HKOs with Draco Meteor, while the Choice Specs variant can OHKO with the same move. Venusaur walls, even through Ice Beam, which doesn’t faze the Seed Pokémon much while it OHKOs back with Sludge Bomb. Furthermore, wherever there’s Venusaur, there’s bound to be a Ninetales running around. If Venusaur gets that Clorophyll boost, it outspeeds Ludicolo, Choice Scarf or not, and either OHKOs or uses Ludicolo as set-up bait. Therefore, it would be nice to have counters to the two Grass-Types that wall through Ludicolo. Heatran makes for a decent little friend, even in the rain. Once the rain is stopped, Heatran can pick off the two Grass-Types with Fire Blast or Flamethrower, and (since Swift Swim is banned whenever Politoed’s around) outspeed Kingdra and have a good chance at OHKOing with Dragon Pulse after factoring in Stealth Rock damage. You can also ditch Politoed altogether and go for a surprise Rain Dance lead (not very common after Gen IV) that can also provide support. Uxie is a very good example, since it can set up Reflect and Light Screen, then Rain Dance, followed by either Memento or Stealth Rock. While this brings Ludicolo back to its original problem, it shouldn’t take more than 8 turns to destroy the opposing team with one of the biggest tanks in the OU metagame. One last teammate, ironically, is Tyranitar. It might seem weird, but having a Pokémon that can control the rain at will really make things better for Heatran, and eases the pain of having its power crippled by the downpour.

Choice Specs
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/65/Spr_5b_272_m.png@Choice Specs
Nature: Modest/Bold
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP/252 Special Attack/4 Speed
-Surf/Hydro Pump
-Grass Knot/Energy Ball/Giga Drain
-Ice Beam
-Focus Blast

Set Comments:
This set is similar to the Choice Scarf set, but its function is way different. Instead of making the first blow and hitting, this set functions well at OHKOing its way through anything the other set couldn’t. In the rain, Hydro Pump and Surf get double STAB from a Special Attack multiplied by 1.5. Surf is an option now, but if you go for Bold, you might want to choose Hydro Pump to compensate for that little loss of Special Attack that you get from losing a Modest Nature. Giga Drain could be used against any Pokémon weak to Grass to recover any lost HP. Ice Beam and Focus Blast serve the same basic purpose they serve on the Choice Scarf set: to take down Dragons and Tyranitar. Dragonite gets 2HKOd by Ice Beam because of Multi-Scale, but with Stealth Rock, it becomes an OHKO (Either that, or a stall war between Roost and Ice Beam, depending on the set), but Focus Blast will always OHKO Tyranitar no matter the weather. Tyranitar, however, will only OHKO Ludicolo if it has a Choice Band, but the given EVs allow Tyranitar to tie with Ludicolo for the first strike. If this troubles you, you can also switch the EV spread to 248 HP/252 Special Attack/8 Speed in order to always outspeed and OHKO Choice Band Tyranitar.

Additional Comments and Team Options:
The teammates for this set are basically the same: Heatran and Uxie. Heatran outspeeds and OHKOs Venusaur and Ferrothorn with Fire Blast once Tyranitar has been sent out to change the weather. There’s not much to mention here that’s been mentioned in the Choice Scarf set, except the fact that Ludicolo will get hit a lot more often. Prepare yourself accordingly by preparing counters to the things that Ludicolo would outspeed with Choice Scarf, such as Gyarados, which isn’t OHKOd by Grass Knot. Galvantula enjoys the rain’s support to further increase the accuracy of its Compoundeyes-boosted Thunder and also OHKOs Gyarados with said Thunder. In return, Ludicolo takes down Heatran and Chandelure, but can’t risk switching in on a Tyranitar’s Stone Edge. It is in this way that Ludicolo functions as a revenge killer.

Subseed
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/65/Spr_5b_272_m.png@Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 232 HP/216 Special Defense/60 Speed
-Leech Seed
-Substitute
-Surf/Grass Knot/Ice Beam
-Protect/Toxic

Set Comments:
The classic SubSeed set. Ludicolo uses this set mainly to cover itself against special attacks, as well as some physical ones. The trick is to switch Ludicolo in on a Water-Type move or anything that it can take really well, force a switch, and Substitute on the switch. Then you can freely Leech Seed while your opponent breaks your Substitute. The beauty of this is that in these two turns, you’ve freely recovered 37.5% of your maximum HP, not counting what you lost making the Substitute.

The choice of attacking move is basically determined by your team’s weakness. If you notice your team is a bit Dragon-weak, go for Ice Beam. However, if your team needs a check for bulky waters, then Grass Knot (or Energy Ball) is the choice for you. The overall choice, however, is Surf, due to the double STAB that it provides. The last move is for a bit of extra indirect damage. If you think that Ludicolo might play the long game, then Toxic is a nice way to stall for that switch, or maybe to get that KO faster (in 5 turns after factoring in Stealth Rock). Toxic also increases the damage output every turn, so you don’t have to get in a stall war with Dragonite when it starts to Roost. If you feel like you might want that extra last-ditch 12.5%, or maybe you’re going for the 25% recovery, go for Protect and see if that critical little recovery can turn the match upside-down.

Additional Comments and Team Options:
Support in the form of Dual Screens helps Ludicolo a lot, and, although they’re not as useful in this set, entry hazards are always welcome in any Ludicolo set. Also, the Uxie set mentioned in the Choice sets isn’t really working much due to the increased amount of stalling that Ludicolo’s going to do. In this case, Drizzle is mandatory, so bring a Politoed with you. Since Ludicolo takes normal damage from both Electric and Grass, you won’t have extra weaknesses running around your team. Again, Ferrothorn walls this set big time, and Tyranitar takes away that bit of recovery, plus, without Focus Blast, dispatching of the Armor Pokémon is quite a quest on its own. In short, Ludicolo is countered by anything that resists the attacking move of its choice and can at least 2HKOit back. With no investment in its base 70 Defense, any good physical attacker can do the job. Unless Ludicolo has already set up or it has Ice Beam, Dragonite will easily switch in and 2HKO with Extremespeed and the STAB move it chooses (Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail). Remember that Dragon Tail doesn’t phaze on Substitutes, and, if Ludicolo is switched out, the next Pokémon will still receive, at the very least, the Leech Seed recovery.

Life Orb
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/65/Spr_5b_272_m.png@Life Orb
Nature: Modest/Timid
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP/252 Special Attack/4 Speed
-Hydro Pump/Surf
-Giga Drain/Grass Knot
-Ice Beam
-Focus Blast

Basically this is the same thing as the Choice Specs set without the annoying lock or the extra STAB. The attack power of the moves is 30% higher than that of the Choice Scarf set, without the speed boost. The only reason one would even consider using a Life Orb is to make Ludicolo an efficient sweeper without having to switch out so much. This Ludicolo packs the same punch as the Swift Swim set used back in the days when Swift Swim was legal, but without the speed boost, plus add some extra bulk to make it slightly stronger against either form of damage.

Hydro Pump is the preferred option over Surf because 90 base Special Attack is not the best of the bunch, and it can OHKO quite a few things in the rain, mainly Specially Defensive Forretress and Skarmory, which are pretty cocky with their defenses, and, since Ludicolo's not known for its Special Attack, they will probably stay in. Even if they switch out, Ludicolo can take on most of the OU metagame (bar Ferrothorn, Venusaur, and Ninetales, as well as other special walls such as Blissey) in the rain. Giga Drain is recomended over Grass Knot because of the ability to deal large damage to even bulky waters and recover off the Life Orb recoil from its repeated attacks. However, Grass Knot OHKOs Swampert and 2HKOs the bulkiest of Gyarados, but lacks the pure strength needed to overpower bulky waters, mainly Vaporeon and Suicune. Ice Beam and Focus Blast are for Dragons and Tyranitar, respectively, and they have been mentioned before in the Choice sets.

Additional Options and Team Options: Ludicolo enjoys having Stealth Rock support, as it takes away at least 12.5% of its opponent's HP, turning 2HKOs of over 87.5% into OHKOs. It also makes Gyarados start things out with 75% of its maximum HP, and has a high chance of 2HKOing the bulky Gyaradoses (Gyaradi?) mentioned. Chandelure can OHKO Venusaur and Ferrothorn with Flamethrower or Fire Blast, and it loves the sun that Ninetales sets up.

Post-Analysis:

Opinion:
Ludicolo has always been an under-classed Pokémon due to its bad stats and dependence on the rain. As I have mentioned with my Choice sets, Ludicolo is capable of dishing out its fair share of damage with or without the rain on its side. It’s also capable of dispatching many common OU threats, even Ferrothorn, given the Choice Specs set, as well 2HKOing even Dragonite with Ice Beam. The capability of dispatching threats like this so easily makes Ludicolo both an excellent revenge killer and a very nice sweeper in the rain, even without the use of Swift Swim. In conclusion, Ludicolo, may you shine on for the rest of your days as the master under the rain.

Other Options:
Life Orb works if you dislike switching out so much, but you lose the boost in one of its stats, and you’ll be attacking from a mere base 90 Special Attack, which does not a good Life Orb Sweeper make. Swords Dance is an option for messing with its decent physical movepool, but there’s not much use to it outside of Swift Swim, and the attack boost isn’t all that great, and its special movepool far outclasses his physical one. Ludicolo can also use Fake Out if it plans to take out something’s Focus Sash, but that’s about it. Choice Specs-boosted Hidden Power Fire is a 2HKO on Ferrothorn, but Focus Blast far outclasses it with the ability to OHKO Tyranitar.

Teammates:
Heatran, Uxie, Tyranitar, and Galvantula, as well as the obvious Politoed all work in taking care of Ludicolo’s checks and giving it support. Ludicolo enjoys having a counter to Ferrothorn and Flying-types such as Zapdos that threaten to OHKO with their STAB attacks. Uxie provides surprise Dual Screen support and Stealth Rock or Memento to cripple the opponent’s team, and it’s also a very good Rain Dance lead. Tyranitar also dispatches most Rotom-As (Save for Rotom-H) rather easily, and Ludicolo seems a bit walled by Rotom-F, so Ghost-Type checks are still good thanks to Tyranitar. Be aware that Hydro Pump now gets STAB from Rotom-W, and is now 2HKOd by it. Avoid switching into Rotom-W’s Hydro Pump a lot.

Counters:
There aren’t any sure-fire Ludicolo counters, but its top check for now is Ferrothorn, for it resists both of its STABs and takes very little damage from its other moves, save for a Choice Specs Focus Blast, which is a 2HKO. Ferrothorn can 2HKO back with Power Whip, but Thunder Wave is the main reason why Ferrothorn is Ludicolo’s top counter, especially for the Choice Scarf set, since Focus Blast won’t 2HKO any variant of Ferrothorn, plus Thunder Wave will end Ludicolo’s chances of sweeping permanently by paralyzing it. The set it most checks, however, is the SubSeed set, making Ludicolo incapable of making any indirect damage with immunities to both Leech Seed and Toxic, and leaves Ludicolo using its attacking move of choice, all of which deal laughably small amounts of damage. Another counter worth mentioning is Zapdos. Not only can it make good use of the rain to launch STAB Thunders out of 125 base Special Attack for massive damage, but it can also launch Drill Pecks or Hidden Power Flyings for super-effective damage, hurting Ludicolo hard. Ludicolo’s chances of 2HKOing specially defensive Zapdos are minuscule, allowing it to 2HKO back with Thunder or its Flying-Type STAB move, if it has one. Zapdos can also set up Light Screen, ending the sweep of any variant of Choice Ludicolo. Lastly, Venusaur and Ninetales are amazing counters to Ludicolo as well. Ninetales halves the power of any Water-Type attack with its sheer presence, something no other Fire-Type can do without the use of the move Sunny Day, plus its Special Defense is pretty high, which prevents even a Choice Specs Hydro Pump from OHKOing, no matter the variant of Ninetales. If you have the bad luck of running into the Special Attacker variant, it will 2HKO with Flamethrower or Fire Blast, while Choice Scarf Hydro Pump will only 3HKO back (That is, if all 3 hits land.) Venusaur is listed as the last counter, as it has been Ludicolo’s foe for as long as it’s existed. Its ability to wall any move Ludicolo throws at it, then counter with super-effective Sludge Bombs for the OHKO, given Growth is in effect. Chlorophyll also allows Venusaur to outspeed Choice Scarf Ludicolo and set up Growth, followed by an OHKOing STAB Sludge Bomb for super-effective damage. As with its Grass-Type buddy, Ferrothorn, it’s immune to both Leech Seed and Toxic, shutting down the SubSeed set’s main purpose.

Credits: Thanks to Smogon for the SubSeed sets, plus the Smogon Damage Calculator. Without it, I wouldn't have even started this analysis. I'd also like to give thanks to MikeDecIsHere and Lapras6666 of the TeamUber forums for recommending the Life Orb set to me.

supergum1295
04-11-2011, 12:07 AM
In my opinion, I think I did pretty well on this analysis. Any questions or additions you'd like me to make, just give me a holler and I will add them at my earliest convenience (nobody's perfect, after all.). Supergum1295, out.

MikeDecIsHere
04-11-2011, 12:46 AM
This needs to be fixed format wise a bit, but we'll worry about that in the grammar editing phase.

Anyway, with Rain Dance support, or even Rain Dance of its own, I believe that a Life Orb set is completely viable, especially considering how dangerous Ludicolo can be in the rain.

DDwhiscash
04-11-2011, 01:01 AM
Mention Swift Swim and Drizzle Politoed in other options, but remember to stat that it's only legal off the Smogon server.

lapras6666
04-11-2011, 05:57 AM
Mention Swift Swim and Drizzle Politoed in other options, but remember to stat that it's only legal off the Smogon server.

-This. Since we are using smogon tiers, we are using Alardon's proposal, the combination of Swift Swim and Drizzle is banned. I know that it's hard but you should adapt the sets to those rules. Of course, mention that it could be used on ervers with that combination allowed, but the smogon tiers are the main tiers that we follow. Just see how I did it on my Kingdra analysis.
-Also, why do you put counters and teammates on every set when you already have them on the botttom?
-This analysis needs urgently a LO set.
Also, i think that this analysis is on the WIP phase, not QC.

Otherwise, very good work.

steel dragons
04-11-2011, 01:43 PM
Ok, I made some minor format changes to your analysis. I hope that you don't mind, and if you want to, you can change it to how you want it to be.

Anyway, for my thoughts:
Giga Drain should be the primary option over Energy Ball. Energy Ball has 80 power while Giga Drain has 75 power, yet giga Drain heals Ludicolo while Energy Ball does not.

You mention that the spread for the Choice Specs only speed-ties choice Band Tyranitar. Why not change the current spread so that Ludicolo can beat Tyranitar 100% of the time? Just change it to 248 HP, 252 SpA, and 8 Spe so that Ludicolo beats Tyranitar. Also, most Tyranitars don't run max speed anymore anyway.

You did a nice job on this analysis. I might have more suggestions later for this.

MikeDecIsHere
04-11-2011, 11:14 PM
Ok, I made some minor format changes to your analysis. I hope that you don't mind, and if you want to, you can change it to how you want it to be.

Anyway, for my thoughts:
Giga Drain should be the primary option over Energy Ball. Energy Ball has 80 power while Giga Drain has 75 power, yet giga Drain heals Ludicolo while Energy Ball does not.

You mention that the spread for the Choice Specs only speed-ties choice Band Tyranitar. Why not change the current spread so that Ludicolo can beat Tyranitar 100% of the time? Just change it to 248 HP, 252 SpA, and 8 Spe so that Ludicolo beats Tyranitar. Also, most Tyranitars don't run max speed anymore anyway.

You did a nice job on this analysis. I might have more suggestions later for this.

Your format changes are wrong....you don't even technically use the correct format, as SilentDreams has been constantly telling me -_-.

Anyway, there are a lot of things that are wrong with this. Some of your information is just plain wrong, and some context is in the wrong place (for example, you have team options mixed with additional comments....). Please see the thread, 5th gen analysis format, to see where everything needs to go.

The sets aren't that bad though, but you can list Swift Swim in with the abilities of the offensive sets, since Rand Dance support can still be used with Ludicolo.