PDA

View Full Version : Black and White Type Tiering: Day 2 - Ghost.



Dabottle
09-02-2012, 01:04 PM
There was a three way tie yesterday, so I randomised the list and chose the first item on the list: http://puu.sh/11iHJ


Every day, we will be tiering the ingame utility of every Pokémon of a certain type, in relation to other Pokémon of that type. Each thread will last three days. You may debate the utility of each Pokémon as much as you wish in their thread.
At the end of the three day period, a finalised list will be drawn up with an explanation for each Pokémon's location.

Feel free to give suggestions! ^_^

Rules:
1. Provide an argument with your suggestion.
2. For version exclusives, assume you're playing the game they're in.
3. Read the section below.

Things to factor:


Stats.
Movepool.
Evolution level.
Availability.
Utility.
Gym and E4 matchups.



The Pokémon we will be evaluating this time are:


Cofagrigus.
Jellicent.
Chandelure.
Golurk.



Current Tier List:

High Tier:
Chandelure.
Jellicent.
Cofagrigus.


Low Tier:
Golurk.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 01:10 PM
Chandelure Top tier because it has very good stats, can learn grass moves to protect it from Water types the only draw back really is its speed.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 01:12 PM
Energy Ball is postgame, iirc. However, it probably is the best of the Ghost types, unless somebody wants to make a case for Jellicent.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 01:15 PM
It also has a decent E4 match up

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 01:19 PM
Maybe Chandelure High, Jellicent Mid, Cofagrigus Mid, Golurk Low?
I won't edit anything in yet. I'll wait for more people to respond.

Dragonite
09-02-2012, 01:37 PM
If you're doing the "Upper middle"/"Lower middle" thing again, I'd put Jellicent in the Lower half and Cofagrius in the upper half.

Jellicent has a fair amount of HP and Special Defense, but that's about it. It also doesn't really have great moves or attack stats to use the moves. I'ts available at a decent part of the game, but doesn't evolve from Frillish until Level 40. The only thing it may get points for is the fact that it can learn the 3 water HMs and Flash.

Cofagrius has amazing defenses and decent Special Attack, learns both attacks and status moves like Will-o-Wisp and Toxic and Substitute (although that's not as helpful within the game as it is in the metagame), and it has a good ability that can be used to nullify abilities like Marshall's Sawk's Sturdy and Ghetsis' Eelektross's Levitate and maybe N's Zoroark's Illusion and a score of other annoying abilities. The only major problems is its lack of HP - which can be covered with things like berries and other items - and its Speed, which can be covered with the TM for Trick Room.

Chandelure should probably stay at the top of the list, given its Special Attack and moves to take advantage of it.
Golurk should probably stay at the bottom, since it has Attack and a few good moves, but nothing else. Except maybe Fly, but there are better Pokemon to equip with Fly.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 01:44 PM
I'll go with that for now. It feels strange having four tiers for four Pokémon, but they are different enough for it to be necessary...
Chandelure's definitely somewhere at the top of this list. It has fantastic offence, and while it's availability is quite bad and it takes a while to evolve, it's probably better than the rest here.
As for Jellicent, it has excellent defences, Scald, Recover and decent coverage. It can also be caught evolved, if you're willing to deal with the special tiles. For that reason I think it could go up... It's also available right after Surf.

Uzi
09-02-2012, 01:54 PM
Move Jellicent to upper mid. It gets WoW, Scald, Surf, Shadow Ball, and Recover. You can use all of these moves effectively. You can use WoW/Scald on Marshal for easy burns, Shadow Ball vs Shauntal+ he'll be able to take a hit and then some because of his amazing Sp. Defence and Recover. Speed doesn't matter in game, really. It only matters if you can take a hit and survive.

I think that Chandelure should drop down to upper mid as well. None of the ghost types in Gen 5 are just "Wow" and they're only decent at best in my opinion. Cofagrius should stay in upper mid. He's good there and is a utility member that shouldn't be used for all out attacking really, just like Jellicent.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 01:56 PM
Good points, Uzi. While Chandelure's probably better, it's availability and evolution mean it probably doesn't deserve a tier gap. Will edit again.
Jellicent is going up too.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:10 PM
If your going like that Cofagrigus would have a tier gap because you can get it so early(pre evlotion) and if your to lazy to train you can wait and catch it in the Bottom floors of the Castle. It has a diverse move pool and you can go anyway with it. The only thing that really is bad that it stats could be better.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:15 PM
Chandelure: 145 Special Attack is great, sure, but it's kinda slow and has below average bulk. Shadow Ball and Fire Blast are great, though. It's found pretty late. I I think it should be Mid Tier.
Golurk: 124 Attack is very good and it has great bulk. Sure, it's found at Dragonspiral Tower, and it's very slow, but it learns moves such as Earthquake, Hammer Arm, and Curse. It should be High Tier.
Jellicent: Very good special bulk, bad attack. It's found pretty early though, and the access to Scald and Water Spout mean it's Mid Tier for me.
Cofagrigus: Tends to move in slow motion. It has amazing defense and a good ability, but 58 HP doesn't do it for me, and it's found somewhat late. It does have above average special attack though, which means it can utilize Nasty Plot to a decent effect. Between Low and Mid Tier.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:17 PM
Cofagrigus: Tends to move in slow motion. It has amazing defense and a good ability, but 58 HP doesn't do it for me, and it's found somewhat late. It does have above average special attack though, which means it can utilize Nasty Plot to a decent effect. Between Low and Mid Tier.

Yamask ring a bell you find it before the 4th gym. Its the first Ghost type you can find in the game.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:22 PM
>chandelure is slow and comes late - mid tier
>golurk is slower and comes later - high tier

What?

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:24 PM
Golurk has access to a boosting move, unlike Chandelure.

And, speed means nothing for Golurk. It's supposed to be a bulky attacker.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:27 PM
What is this boosting move?

Golurk's defences aren't even very good.

89/80/80.

Ice
09-02-2012, 02:28 PM
I basically agree with the current standings. I'd say Chandelure is easily the best, and though it's joining time is later than the other two high tiers, it isn't incredibly late. Jellicent and Cofagrigus join earlier and are good defensive Pokemon, and though I generally prefer an offensive playstyle ingame, they are still very useful to a team. From stats and join time, it seems like Golurk should be in a tier that is lower than those three, but I've never personally used it. (still best flier though)

Also, lol at Ubers saying Cofagrigus comes late.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:28 PM
Golurk also has the most weakness

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:28 PM
Iron Defense.


I basically agree with the current standings. I'd say Chandelure is easily the best, and though it's joining time is later than the other two high tiers, it isn't incredibly late. Jellicent and Cofagrigus join earlier and are good defensive Pokemon, and though I generally prefer an offensive playstyle ingame, they are still very useful to a team. From stats and join time, it seems like Golurk should be in a tier that is lower than those three, but I've never personally used it. (still best flier though)

Also, lol at Ubers saying Cofagrigus comes late.
Lol at you for saying Relic Castle is early(later parts of it).

Ice
09-02-2012, 02:30 PM
Yamask is on floor one, which is after the 3rd gym. Try again.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:30 PM
Iron Defense.


Lol at you for saying Relic Castle is early(later parts of it).

I still can't see why do you see before the 4th gym late?

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:30 PM
>iron defence
Hahahahahahaha.

Golurk also gets destroyed by the Ice gym, which the others fare quite well against. That Water/Ice/Grass weakness isn't very nice later on, either.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:31 PM
That means nothing, Golurk isn't intended to fight Brycen.

And by your logic, Chandelure also has an unfortunate weakness.


What did I have in my head when I said Cofagrigus is late?

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:33 PM
Yeah but still it is weak to Grass, Water, Ice, Ghost, Dark

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:34 PM
It has a poor matchup against the Ice Gym. It gets killed by everything there, and thus has negative utility.
It comes late, is slow and has average defences. I've used one. Trust me, it's not all that great. Its speed means that everything gets to hit it first.

Chandelure is weak to Rock and Ground (as well as Dark, Ghost, Water). Most Pokémon of that type have poor Sp. Def and get one shotted anyway. I will admit that the Sandile line and Tympole lines are exceptions, but it can generally outspeed things.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:35 PM
You know what? Brick Break says hi.

And will you have a level 43 pokemon at Brycen? No.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:36 PM
It has a poor matchup against the Ice Gym. It gets killed by everything there, [...] Its speed means that everything gets to hit it first.

Try reading posts first.



And will you have a level 43 pokemon at Brycen? No.

So you'll have a Golett. Good luck.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:38 PM
And one more thing: Brycen's main Pokemon, Beartic, is EVEN SLOWER than Golurk.
So no, Golurk is not destroyed by Brycen, if your Golett IS evolved, which I doubt highly. He's not intended for Brycen anyway.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:40 PM
Meanwhile, Chandelure trivialises Brycen, Jellicent resists most things and Cofagrigus has excellent defences and Will-o-Wisp.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:43 PM
Sorry, but Brycen's Beartic's Icicle Crash doesn't ohko level 43 Golurk, and Brick Break cleanly 2hkoes. As Golurk is faster and it has great attack, it can punish Beartic.

The same story happens with Chandelure, you need to be at least level 41, at that point you're overleveled.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:44 PM
Lets make this easy shall we

Least Weaknesses: Cofagrigus
best stats: Chandulare
Best move pool: Jellicent
Easist to get: Cofugrigus

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:46 PM
Sorry, but Brycen's Beartic's Icicle Crash doesn't ohko level 43 Golurk, and Brick Break cleanly 2hkoes. As Golurk is faster and it has great attack, it can punish Beartic.

The same story happens with Chandelure, you need to be at least level 41, at that point you're overleveled.

Litwick can level up from killing everything in the gym. It also comes earlier and could easily be at level 41 by the gym.
Golett gets destroyed by everything and comes at level 34 or something.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:47 PM
Lets make this easy shall we

Least Weaknesses: Cofagrigus
best stats: Chandulare
Best move pool: Golurk
Easist to get: Cofugrigus

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:48 PM
Sorry, but you're wrong.

HAHAHAHA no. I forgot to add something
Easist to train: Jellicent

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:49 PM
Litwick can level up from killing everything in the gym. It also comes earlier and could easily be at level 41 by the gym.
Golett gets destroyed by everything and comes at level 34 or something.

What reliable fire-type move can Litwick learn before evolving? You need Heart Scale to get Flame Burst.

Ice
09-02-2012, 02:51 PM
I am fairly sure a lv26 wild Litwick comes with that.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:51 PM
What reliable fire-type move can Litwick learn before evolving? You need Heart Scale to get Flame Burst.

No, you don't.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:51 PM
What reliable fire-type move can Litwick learn before evolving? You need Heart Scale to get Flame Burst.

No because you get it around 26 ish and it has Flame Burst then

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:52 PM
Yes you do, but not always. I remember in my White playthrough I caught a Litwick for my team, and it knew Will-o-Wisp, Night Shade, Confuse Ray and Imprison.

I had a Heart Scale, though, so I got rid of Imprison and taught it Flame Burst.

Oh, and I remembered: Golurk can learn Fly. That means no more HM slaves.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 02:54 PM
Yes you do, but not always. I remember in my White playthrough I caught a Litwick for my team, and it knew Will-o-Wisp, Night Shade, Confuse Ray and Imprison.

I had a Heart Scale, though, so I got rid of Imprison and taught it Flame Burst.
Thats why you catch it on the first floor

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 02:56 PM
There are no bad fully evolved ghosts in BW, anyway.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 02:58 PM
and it knew Will-o-Wisp, Night Shade, Confuse Ray and Imprison.

http://puu.sh/11kek

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 03:00 PM
OMG I must have been so unlucky by looking at that list.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 03:01 PM
OMG I must have been so unlucky by looking at that list.
Well anyomne who thinks Golurk is better than Chandulare in unlucky

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 03:03 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, anyone who spells Chandelure incorrectly is unlucky.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 03:03 PM
OMG I must have been so unlucky by looking at that list.

I think it's more that you're lying, Ubers.

Dragonite
09-02-2012, 03:03 PM
Oh, and I remembered: Golurk can learn Fly. That means no more HM slaves.

You know, most people will have a flying type like Unfeazant or Archeops or something that can use and get STAB from Fly.

And there's more to the game than Brycen's gym, has anyone noticed? So what if Golett/Golurk can't take it on. We're not talking about solo Unova sweeps here, we're talking about overall game usefullness. I liked the list as it was back on Page 1.

Ice
09-02-2012, 03:03 PM
I honestly think the only time I ever really used Fly in this game was when I had to backtrack right before the Elite 4 for TMs I wanted. Also there are plenty of good flying types this gen anyway.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 03:06 PM
No, I'm dead serious, I needed a Heart Scale to teach Litwick Flame Burst.

And I'm saying it once more: GOLURK IS NOT INTENDED FOR BRYCEN.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 03:06 PM
So I don't use Golurk for fly. I really think you should rethink this Uber.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 03:08 PM
You should rethink this, Ferro.

I think you have never used Golurk.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 03:10 PM
You should rethink this, Ferro.

I think you have never used Golurk.

I did Uber and it sucked compared to the other Ghost types

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 03:12 PM
Alright.
It's useless against Shauntal. Chandelure can score potential OHKOs and Jellicent and Cofagrigus can stall.
Nobody can really do much against Grimsley. Chandelure can take out Bisharp and Jellicent can beat Krookodile. Golurk can probably hold off Liepard and Bisharp.
Apparently two of Marshall's guys have Grass Knot, wtf? It can Fly there, which is pretty good. This is where Golurk shines. Jellicent and Cofagrigus can stall and Chandelure's pretty useless.
Caitlin's Reuniclus has Energy Ball and Sigilyph has Ice Beam. The other two have Electric moves, which Jellicent can probably shrug off. Everything but Reuniclus has Shadow Ball too. Golurk's speed won't help it here.

Golurk can probably fight N's Klinklang and Archeops. It might be able to EQ the Dragons too. It can fight Ghetsis' Bouffalant and Bisharp. Not very useful here. Someone else can analyse what the others can do here.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 03:13 PM
Good explanation LP. Please don't take me like I'm overrating Golurk.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 03:19 PM
Ok lets just say Golurk is not terriable but it is the worst of the Ghost types.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 03:28 PM
Best set for Golurk:
- Earthquake
- Hammer Arm/Shadow Punch
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish/Iron Defense

Best set for Jellicent:
- Surf/Scald
- Shadow Ball
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam

Best set for Chandelure:
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Psychic

Best set for Cofagrigus:
- Toxic/Will-o-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Nasty Plot/Calm Mind

The Arrow
09-02-2012, 03:31 PM
I think Cofagrigus should be Mid Tier. I just don't think it's good enough to be High Tier.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 03:35 PM
Best set for Golurk:
- Earthquake
- Hammer Arm/Shadow Punch
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish/Iron Defense

Best set for Jellicent:
- Surf/Scald
- Shadow Ball
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam

Best set for Chandelure:
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Psychic

Best set for Cofagrigus:
- Toxic/Will-o-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Nasty Plot/Calm Mind

Please only include pre-E4 TMs. Also, Golurk will probably have Fly if it's in play.

Ferrospike
09-02-2012, 03:39 PM
I think Cofagrigus should be Mid Tier. I just don't think it's good enough to be High Tier.

It does have what it takes because its the easist to get, has a good enough move pool, and the least amount of weaknesses

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 03:44 PM
OK....

Golurk:
- Earthquake
- Fly
- Curse
- Rock Slide

Cofagrigus:
- Will-o-Wisp/Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot
- Safeguard?

Jellicent
- Surf/Scald
- Shadow Ball
- Will-o-Wisp/Toxic
- Blizzard

Chandelure
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Confuse Ray
- Taunt/Sunny Day

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 04:10 PM
[02-09, 17:07] Lord Penguin: Who the hell is "Not teling"?
[02-09, 17:08] Lord Penguin: I can't accept a nomination if you don't tell me who you are. It could easily be a double vote.

Flubbs
09-02-2012, 06:41 PM
What? Wow i got here late. T_T The way these four are arranged right now is probably the best way it can be done. Chandelure is OP ingame, Jellicent is pretty powerful while being able to stall through some fights, and Cofagrigus is a super wall and can stall where it wants to. Then there's Golurk. Sadly, Golurk is a bit outclassed when it comes to the other three ghost types. It does has some nice physical strength that the other ghosts don't have, but it's defenses are average and it isn't really isn't very fast. I'm not saying that it's a bad Pokemon. I'm just saying that in terms of usefulness ingame, the other three ghosts have Golurk beat.

UbersSuck20
09-02-2012, 07:02 PM
Golurk is not outclassed, at all.

Shantae
09-02-2012, 08:00 PM
Oh this is kinda late post but anyways. The current Tier is actually an pretty good arrangement as for now.

Chandelure - Obviously it's in higher tier. Very powerful, good Sp-attacker, learns some of diverse moves. Even that, this pokemon is so useful in Brycen and stall some Elite Four (including Alder) Pokemon (what LP said).

Jellicent - I used him as my team poke in B/W. It turns out this one qualify's as Higher Tier. He is a Special Tank, and it has decent Sp-Attack stats. It might be powerful and stall from other pokes.

Cofagrigus - I understand why he's in Higher tier since you can get his prevolution (Yanmask) pretty early in the game and he's a stall (good defensive and sp-defensive). Tbh, I didn't know about this pokemon very well until now. At least it's pretty tanky and it can survive to any powerful moves. Oh yeah, it has decent Sp-Attack stats.

Golurk - Setting as Ghost/Ground is pretty bad, at least it for Ground type moves, but not for Ghost type movesets. Plus you get this pokemon pretty later in the game which it reasonable why Golurk is in bottom tier. No arugements about it.

Dabottle
09-02-2012, 08:05 PM
Performance against Alder is irrelevant. The main game ends once you beat Ghetsis.

Shantae
09-02-2012, 08:10 PM
Performance against Alder is irrelevant. The main game ends once you beat Ghetsis.

Ahh, I see. Thank you for mention about that though.

CriticalCalla
09-02-2012, 11:02 PM
Chandelure should be moved down, it doesn't learn a reliable fire move until 69 (lol).

Ice
09-02-2012, 11:04 PM
I've always felt Flame Burst worked okay ingame.

CriticalCalla
09-02-2012, 11:13 PM
I've always felt Flame Burst worked okay ingame.

I guess, however I was stupid when I played in-game to get rid of Flame Burst for Inferno, never hit.

Ferrospike
09-03-2012, 12:45 AM
I guess, however I was stupid when I played in-game to get rid of Flame Burst for Inferno, never hit.

Well Inferno's chance of hitting is 50%

sonriopoby123
09-03-2012, 12:55 AM
I....agree with everything here. Golurk deserves Low Tier.


I guess, however I was stupid when I played in-game to get rid of Flame Burst for Inferno, never hit.
How is that stupid? Inferno is about the same as Fire Blast. (Though, my Chandelure never misses it's Inferno. :P)
Just get the Flamethrower TM then.

Ice
09-03-2012, 01:09 AM
Generally ingame it is worth sacrificing some power from a move like Fire Blast for the higher PP and accuracy of a move such as Flamethrower or Flame Burst. A high-power, low accuracy/low PP move of a type could be worth having in another slot for whenever you need the extra punch but replacing that second type of move entirely will probably mess you up because of the amount of times you'll miss.

UbersSuck20
09-03-2012, 07:59 AM
Yes but a lot of PP Ups can be found in the game, and I prefer power > accuracy(That doesn't mean I use Blizzard over Ice Beam, though).

And why do you compare Inferno with Fire Blast?(It would be awesome if something with good Special Attack would get the No Guard ability and learn this move.)

Ferrospike
09-03-2012, 01:11 PM
Yes but a lot of PP Ups can be found in the game, and I prefer power > accuracy(That doesn't mean I use Blizzard over Ice Beam, though).

And why do you compare Inferno with Fire Blast?(It would be awesome if something with good Special Attack would get the No Guard ability and learn this move.)

Well no one ever has a move set on a Pokemon with just low PP moves

UbersSuck20
09-03-2012, 01:50 PM
Shadow Ball is not a low PP move.

Ferrospike
09-03-2012, 01:59 PM
Shadow Ball is not a low PP move.

Well ok then but the rest of its moves have 5

Dabottle
09-03-2012, 03:24 PM
The next thread has been created. You may find it here: http://superskarmory.net/forum/showthread.php?1842-Black-and-White-Type-Tiering-Day-3-Psychic
This thread will remain open for discussion for two more days.

Shiningbolt
09-03-2012, 09:13 PM
All I can say is I agree with this tier list. It's a shame that there aren't very many Pokemon to choose from, though.
Chandelure is just too powerful, Jellicent kind of reminds me of Tentacruel, but being part Ghost sounds much more useful. The coffin Pokemon thingy is quite a tank and although Golurk sits at the bottom, I still find it to be fairly decent.