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View Full Version : Black and White Type Tiering: Day 6 - Fire.



Dabottle
09-06-2012, 03:55 PM
http://puu.sh/12ztq

Vote for tomorrow's type here! (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHVRRFdoTTFVemtnTndxT3c3MlJ1U3c6M Q#gid=0) Just to clarify, previous votes do not carry over. If you don't state your username, I'm throwing the vote out.


Every day, we will be tiering the ingame utility of every Pokémon of a certain type, in relation to other Pokémon of that type. Each thread will last three days. You may debate the utility of each Pokémon as much as you wish in their thread.
At the end of the three day period, a finalised list will be drawn up with an explanation for each Pokémon's location.

Feel free to give suggestions! ^_^

Rules:
1. Provide an argument with your suggestion.
2. For version exclusives, assume you're playing the game they're in.
3. Read the section below.

Things to factor:


Stats.
Movepool.
Evolution level/method.
Availability.
Utility.
Gym and E4 matchups.



The Pokémon we will be evaluating this time are:


Emboar.
Simisear.
Darmanitan.
Chandelure.
Heatmor.
Volcarona. (Lolololololol.)
Reshiram.



Current Tier List:

Top Tier:
Darmanitan.
Emboar.

High Tier:
-Placeholder.-

Mid Tier:
Chandelure.
Simisear.

Low Tier:
Reshiram.

Bottom Tier:
Heatmor.
Volcarona.

Dabottle
09-06-2012, 03:56 PM
Volcarona's already in Bottom Tier.

Now for the others.
Emboar and Darmanitan are at the top. You guys argue the rest.

UbersSuck20
09-06-2012, 04:05 PM
Emboar - Avaiable from the start, good power, learns great moves, and decent bulk and typing. High Tier though because it's slow.
Simisear - Very fast, avaiable very early, learns good moves. However, it has mediocre Attack and Special Attack, and it's frail. Mid Tier
Darmanitan - It learns its premier move very early, found early, killer Attack, pretty fast, and decent bulk. Top Tier
Chandelure - Great Special Attack, but it has no other stat that exceeds 90. Mid Tier
Heatmor - Found too late and it's slow, and it's Special Attack is too underwhelming to fix that. Bottom Tier
Volcarona - Bottom Tier for obvious reasons.
Reshiram - It kills everything besides Ghetsis' Hydreigon in those two battles. Mid Tier


I'll come up later with a full analysis, including the gyms where they are useful.

Luna
09-06-2012, 04:57 PM
Emboar - Found super early and a great asset to your team from the start. It has good attack to work with its secondary type, and decent Special Attack to go with Fire. Has fighting for a secondary type, so it can counter Rock types well. Levels up quickly if I remember correctly. Agreeing with Ubers here, high tier, because it is too slow and doesn't have great defenses.
Simisear - Very fast. It has decent attack stats, but doesn't have good defenses. Found early and can be used for the first gym if you started with Oshawott. Unfortuantely, it levels up wayyyyyyyyyyy too slowly. Probs Mid Tier.
Darmanitan - I dislike Darmanitan. It has INSANELY high Attack and decent health, but it has terrible Defenses and Sp. Attk. It only learns 4 STAB moves as a Darmanitan, so you have to either invest TMs in him or not use much STAB. He is found early though. Mid tier.
Chandelure - iirc this has the highest Sp. Attk of all none legendary Pokémon in Unova, which is good for its typing (Fire/Ghost for anyone who didn't know.) I also think this is the perfect time to catch it if you don't have a Fire Type, because this is when I catch my last Pokémon for my team. Unfortuantely, you have to teach it all the moves it learns as a Litwick or Lampent, but this isn't too much of a problem. High/Top Tier for me.
Heatmor - Got good well rounded attack, but not very fast and doesn't seem to have much defenses either. Found too late. Low Tier.
Volcarona - FOUND WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TOO LATE TO CONSIDER USING. INSTANT BOTTOM TIER.
Reshiram.

UbersSuck20
09-06-2012, 05:02 PM
Flare Blitz is all Darmanitan needs to wreak havoc, though. He is meant to be a physical attacker.

Dabottle
09-06-2012, 05:20 PM
Darmanitan is way better than Chandelure.

Luna
09-06-2012, 05:26 PM
Chandelure has a dual type, so is more useful, and even still, Darmanitan has 140 Attack, whilst Chandelure has 145. Chandelures typing also works better with its best stat, because there are more Special Ghost and Fire Type moves then Physical Fire types.
Ehh, I also just hate Darmanitan.

UbersSuck20
09-06-2012, 05:30 PM
Chandelure does not have the following:
- A Ground-type move
- A Fighting-type move
- Abililty to learn a very powerful move by level-up, it needs a $70000 TM from Iccirus City, or the Flamethrower TM, which is after the E4.

Here you can find my complete analysis of Fire-types.

http://www.2shared.com/document/Qn1brv-t/Fire-typing.html

Dabottle
09-06-2012, 06:18 PM
I'm not sure if you are, but I think you might be implying that you can only get Larvesta after the E4, Ubers. Not like it really matters, but accuracy is nice.

Going to stick Darmanitan in Top Tier for now.

UbersSuck20
09-06-2012, 06:26 PM
Volcarona can also be catched in Relic Castle way after defeating Ghetsis. It's at Level 70. I prefer obtaining it through this method.

Dabottle
09-06-2012, 06:31 PM
Guess which option is allowed to be discussed here.

Zachgoose
09-06-2012, 07:26 PM
Finally, a good type. xD

Top tier:
Darmanitan- Destroys everything in one hit and is very fast. On top of that, it learns great moves by level and has access to great TMs. It also has stupidly good abilities to make it even more powerful, if that were necessary. Also comes in at the perfect time of the game to destroy the third gym.... And every other gym.... An incredibly useful pick that you should very strongly consider every single time you playthrough the game. It is one of if not the best Pokemon to use in the game. I almost feel that it deserves a "God Tier" of its own.
Emboar- Also deserves a spot in top tier because it is very useful and a starter. But there's still a huge gap in-between Darmanitan and Emboar, because they're similar except Emboar is outclassed in speed and attack by huge increments.

High tier:
Chandelure- A really great asset that comes mid game and also boasts godly power. Being ghost type is also a huge plus.

Mid tier:
Simisear- It's rather nice to use for the first gym and has decent stats and movepool. But it (along with all of the monkeys of this generation) are simply average for the most part.
Reshiram- Dem beautiful blue eyes.

Bottom tier:
Heatmor- Awful and arrives too late to be of any use. You should already have a fully developed team at this point.
Volcanora- 4x weak to stealth rock and we now how much the NPCs like to spam SR. sarcasm/10

UbersSuck20
09-06-2012, 07:40 PM
Emboar outclasses Darmanitan x times regarding special attack, though. It can also burn things with Scald.

Darmanitan has one bull**** ability and an another one which is AMAZING.

Dabottle
09-06-2012, 07:44 PM
Too bad both of those things are irrelevant when you one shot everything.

UbersSuck20
09-06-2012, 07:47 PM
Well, except for Ghetsis' Hydreigon, which could OHKO your Darmanitan with Surf.

Dabottle
09-06-2012, 07:53 PM
Yes, Ubers, nothing is perfect. Not even Seth.

Flubbs
09-06-2012, 09:36 PM
Darmanitan- This thing is amazingly powerful, really fast, and can really OHKO nearly everything in the game. It's found early to mid-game, so it's readily available. Definitely deserves a top tier spot.

Emboar- Emboar is another amazing fire type and nearly matches Darmanitan. It is just outclassed by spped and attack, but Emboar has an amazing movepool and is one of the starters. I would also place this in top tier, but high tier is acceptable.

Chandelure- Found mid-game, Chandelure has a really great special attack and a wonderful typing. It learns some decent moves as well, only getting better with TMs. Its speed isn't so great though, and can be OHKOed by some things. I'd place this in high tier.

Simisear- I'm not a huge fan of the monkey trio, but I will say that Simisear is somewhat helpful early on in the game. It isn't very realiable later in the game due to poor defenses and okay attack. This belongs in mid tier.

Reshiram- A great legendary Pokemon who can help greatly against Ghetsis, but is found at the end of the game. It's good, but for ingame purposes, it's just okay. Mid tier.

Heatmor- I haven't used it, but from what I've heard and seen, this thing is pretty terrible. It's slow and can't really hit hard. It's late game appearance really doesn't help it either. This belongs in bottom tier.

Volcarona- What's wrong with you guys? TOP TIER MATERIAL HERE!!

sonriopoby123
09-07-2012, 12:15 AM
HOW THE HELL DID DARMANITAN GET TOP TIER?!?!?!

I'm just not a fan of it, okay.

Chandelure, High Tier. NAO.
(I'm not even gonna give a reason. Let Flubbs or Ice do it. I'M TIRED.)

/capsdarmanitanwtf

Shiningbolt
09-07-2012, 02:57 AM
This time, I get to agree with Zachgoose, as the tiers have not been edited, yet. I hate most of the Fire types in this gen, so I don't even know how good any of these Pokemon are. Chandelure is good, Darmanitan, after checking its stats, is awesome, not even going to check Emboar or Simisear, Reshiram is found too late, but is still useful WHEN you get it, and Heatmor suffers from nearly everything. Volcarona suffers from Hydreigon syndrome and has worse typing.

Umbrony
09-07-2012, 03:03 AM
HOW THE HELL DID DARMANITAN GET TOP TIER?!?!?!

I'm just not a fan of it, okay.

Chandelure, High Tier. NAO.
(I'm not even gonna give a reason. Let Flubbs or Ice do it. I'M TIRED.)

/capsdarmanitanwtf

First one... Bear with me. This thing is all outta order.

Chandelure has amazing special stats, but the only thing that gets me is it's speed. I make it hold a quick claw so that it strikes first, and it OHKO's everything pretty well, but I wouldn't call it a top tier. Im going to be very lenient, and place It as a high tier in my book.

Emboar, being an excellent dual type fire Pokemon (so tired of Fire/fighting, they are really overdoing it now) has an excellent movepool and stats, and when trained properly, can be quite the tank. It's speed is lower than Darmanitans', indeed, but you can't deny the fact its the only fire type available earliest (pretty obvious no?) in the game, and has good stats, like I have said before to boot. High Tier. It would take top If Darmmy didn't have that Speed~!

Darmanitan is better because it can be found early in the game, like Flubbs said, and can OHKO everything that doesnt resist it or has high bulk pretty well, with a decent speed stat. This is my top tier, you already said everything.

Reshiram is good for battling with your friends with Legends (FLUBBS, LET ME SLAM YOU AGAIN). I wouldn't use it in game, but it has awesome stats. When trained to the max (out of game) like my shiny one, it's special attack goes into the 400's. Using Dragon Pulse on this thing (and Dragon Claw on Zekrom, who a lot of people think is a special attacker, but is a plain physical attacker) with same type attack bonus is gonna hurt. Same for Fusion Flare. Because its cute, I will put it as a high Tier.

Flubbs, you are correct. Heatmor is utterly useless. Who uses that thing? With sucky stats, and being catchable WAY too late in the game, I'm putting it in bottom tier as well. I was disappointed by the difficulty of Victory Road this time as well, as well as the Pokemon in it. It was utterly pathetic. No real training could be done before the Pokemon League..

Uzi
09-07-2012, 03:22 AM
this is in-game stop saying evs if you ev train in game you need a new hobby.

Umbrony
09-07-2012, 03:25 AM
this is in-game stop saying evs if you ev train in game you need a new hobby.

Told you I was new. I missed that. xDDD

Zachgoose
09-07-2012, 03:29 AM
Reshiram is good for battling with your friends with Legends (FLUBBS, LET ME SLAM YOU AGAIN). I wouldn't use it in game, but it has awesome stats. When EV trained to the max like my shiny one, it's special attack goes into the 400's. Using Dragon Pulse on this thing (and Dragon Claw on Zekrom, who a lot of people think is a special attacker, but is a plain physical attacker) with same type attack bonus is gonna hurt. Same for Fusion Flare. Because its cute, I will put it as a high Tier.

I'd hate to burst your bubble, but Reshiram is one of the few Pokemon in the game that it is impossible to encounter a shiny version of. It is coded so that if it would generate a PID that causes shininess, it rejects it and creates a new one.

Can we just go ahead and make this be an adorableness tier list instead and move Reshiram to the top?

Umbrony
09-07-2012, 03:33 AM
I'd hate to burst your bubble, but Reshiram is one of the few Pokemon in the game that it is impossible to encounter a shiny version of. It is coded so that if it would generate a PID that causes shininess, it rejects it and creates a new one.

Can we just go ahead and make this be an adorableness tier list instead and move Reshiram to the top?

So then my shiny Reshiram is hacked? 0-0 Wait, it's Japanese. Let me google that real quick.

DEC
13
The Shiny Factor: Reshiram and Zekrom
in News, Video Games by BlueJello




Reshiram and Zekrom, as most of you all know, are the cover legendaries of the newly released 5th Generation games, Pokemon Black and White. People were ecstatic that there would be two more really cool legendaries available, and this gave shiny hunters a new target. But there was a problem.

Gamfreak gave the two legendaries a shiny check, for reasons still unknown. This meant that they could never shine, no matter how many times one soft-reset (the act of quickly resetting your game to appear in front of the legendary once more, triggered by pressing the L+R+Start+Select buttons). I have read many tales of people soft-resetting for shiny versions of the legendaries, some even reaching twenty-thousand or more resets, but it was all in vain. They would never shine.

In regards to battling the dragons, it was thought that catching the legendaries was compulsory. Normally, when played in the storyline, if you knocked out your legendary, they would reappear in the same spot, and you would be forced to capture them before the storyline could be continued. However, a recent discovery has shown that by filling up all your 24 boxes in your PC and having a full party, you could defeat Reshiram or Zekrom and not have to catch them. The two legendaries would also then reappear at the Dragon Spiral Tower after the main storyline was over. This method would require you to catch 726 Pokemon before encountering Reshiram or Zekrom.

“But, BlueJello, why is this relevant?” you ask me.

Well, when the two dragons reappear at the Dragon Spiral Tower, they no longer appear to have the shiny check on them. This means that they could be shiny on encounter.

However, there was controversy. A Smogon researcher used a ROM, and found that the legendaries did indeed have the shiny check at the Dragon Spiral Tower, and therefore could never be shiny. However, Serebii himself has stated that they can be shiny, and has images to prove it. He claims that the researchers must have got something wrong, regarding coding.

So, that’s the mystery regarding alternate coloured Reshiram and Zekrom. Currently there is no 100 percent solid proof that the dragons can shine, but many (including myself) are taking up the furious task of catching 726 Pokemon, defeating the cover legendary and then finding out for themselves. For those of you with Black and White,*why don’t you join the race, and separate the fact from the fiction?

Afterall, in doing so you may receive one of these as a reward:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/061/c/d/shiny_reshiram_by_whiteelerizo-d3arzei.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/2/26/644_Zekrom_shiny.png




WAT

So, that’s the mystery regarding alternate coloured Reshiram and Zekrom. Currently there is no 100 percent solid proof that the dragons can shine, but many (including myself) are taking up the furious task of catching 726 Pokemon, defeating the cover legendary and then finding out for themselves. For those of you with Black and White,*why don’t you join the race, and separate the fact from the fiction?

Afterall, in doing so you may receive a shiny Reshiram or Zekrom as a reward.
^^
Source:http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/7389/the-shiny-factor-reshiram-and-zekrom

I'm confused. So you can get one Legitly, but it takes a lot of Butthurt to do So, apparently.

Flubbs
09-07-2012, 04:53 AM
Reshiram is good for battling with your friends with Legends (FLUBBS, LET ME SLAM YOU AGAIN). I wouldn't use it in game, but it has awesome stats. When trained to the max (out of game) like my shiny one, it's special attack goes into the 400's. Using Dragon Pulse on this thing (and Dragon Claw on Zekrom, who a lot of people think is a special attacker, but is a plain physical attacker) with same type attack bonus is gonna hurt. Same for Fusion Flare. Because its cute, I will put it as a high Tier.

First, I am terrible at legendary battles, so yeah I get crushed in those battles. I'm much better with non legends. Second, most of the main legendaries of the games are powerful like this, but this one is found at the very end against Ghetsis, so very little training is available. Third, Reshiram belongs in bottom tier because I lose to it all the damn time! But really though, mid tier is where it belongs.

Zachgoose
09-07-2012, 08:03 AM
@Emily- I am more readily willing to trust someone who officially checked the hexadecimal game data first hand then an account on the Serebii website.

@Flubbs- Pokemon like Kyogre/Groudon are more useful than Reshiram/Zekrom for ingame. You literally only get to use Reshi and Zek for two fights before the end of the game. Of course, it is worth using them for these two fights almost always. This is why they've been consistently placed mid tier.

UbersSuck20
09-07-2012, 08:50 AM
^And Rayquaza if you're playing Emerald. Lol, Level 70.

X!!
09-07-2012, 01:44 PM
Volcarona is definitely Bottom Tier. You can only get a Larvesta Egg in the main game and you have no choice but to train your Larvesta up to a high level if you want it to evolve.

Reshiram is in High Tier. It can only be used in the last two battles of the game, but it's still useful.

Chandelure is in Top Tier. It's too obvious why.

Emboar in High Tier. It has great Attack stats and you get it early in the game. Problem is, its Defense and Speed stats.

I have never used the others so I won't give my opinions on them.

UbersSuck20
09-07-2012, 02:45 PM
Chandelure if you ask me should be in Low or Mid Tier.

Dabottle
09-07-2012, 02:45 PM
I put everything else in the tier list. Feel free to complain.

The next thread has been created. You may find it here: http://superskarmory.net/forum/showthread.php?1876-Black-and-White-Type-Tiering-Day-7-Fighting
This thread will remain open for discussion for two more days.

Shantae
09-07-2012, 09:30 PM
This dang late, but I'll discuss about it anyway.
So far, this tier set is fine as it is! No changes at all!

Emboar - Top Tier - Like some people said. It's starter, and you can get it at the start of the game. Pretty good pokemon, tbh.

Simisear - Mid Tier - I found his pre-evolution pokemon useful in early 1st gym, and 3rd Gym. But I don't find him quite useful like later on and his evolution requires a Fire Stone and he also doesn't learn any Fire or other moves (excluding TM/HM's).

Darmanitan - Top Tier - I don't use this pokemon but good alternative than Emboar. It's not just how good his pyshical attack stats, but speed is just really good. Deserved to be Top Tier. The other explanation is by other people's post.

Chandelure - Mid Tier - You have to get his pre-evolution in later in game, as that. Pretty good special-attacker, but Mid Tier is fine as it is.

Heatmor - Bottom Tier - Seriously. You have to catch it until Victory Road, and as you already developed your 6 Team Poke set. No need to get this Pokemon like late in game.

Volcarona - Bottom Tier - Must hatch an egg like until you get Surf HM. Then train up his pre-evolution, Larvesta. Even matters, it can't evolve into a Volcarona until like after-game (Level 59). It's not even not a worth for training it up at this rate. But, Volcarona is very good pokemon by having good special Attack stats but in after-game. Meh. Just wait until Pokemon B/W2, as you can get this much early then B/W but like Lv 30 which pretty under-leveled and it's like you screw his evolution rate. But in this game B/W? NOPE! Obvious choice, Bottom Tier!

Reshiram - Low Tier - Like Zekrom in Electric Tier. You can use him like 2 times (N and Ghetsis) at almost to end of the game. So obvious it's in Low Tier.