PDA

View Full Version : Black and White Type Tiering: Day 9 - Water.



Dabottle
09-09-2012, 06:52 PM
Vote for tomorrow's type here! (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHVRRFdoTTFVemtnTndxT3c3MlJ1U3c6M Q#gid=0) Just to clarify, previous votes do not carry over. If you don't state your username, I'm throwing the vote out.


Every day, we will be tiering the ingame utility of every Pokémon of a certain type, in relation to other Pokémon of that type. Each thread will last three days. You may debate the utility of each Pokémon as much as you wish in their thread.
At the end of the three day period, a finalised list will be drawn up with an explanation for each Pokémon's location.

Feel free to give suggestions! ^_^

Rules:
1. Provide an argument with your suggestion.
2. For version exclusives, assume you're playing the game they're in.
3. Read the section below.

Things to factor:


Stats.
Movepool.
Evolution level/method.
Availability.
Utility.
Gym and E4 matchups.



The Pokémon we will be evaluating this time are:


Samurott.
Simipour.
Seismitoad.
Ba(d)sculin.
Carracosta.
Swanna.
Jellicent.
Alomomola.



Current Tier List:

Top Tier:
Samurott.

High Tier:
Seismitoad.
Simipour.

Mid Tier:
Jellicent.
Carracosta.

Low Tier:
Swanna.

Bottom Tier:
Basculin.
Alomomola.

Zachgoose
09-10-2012, 02:15 AM
Nobody else wants to take a crack at organizing this first? Finnnnnne. To be fair, it is one of the more difficult types to tier.

Top tier:
Samurott- One of the best Pokemon to use in game, and hands down the most useful stater. Insane level up movepool, great TM compatibility, hits hard physically and specially, decently fast, available at the start of the game, and absolutely shuts down most of the gym leaders. On top of that it has an epic mustache. I think its prominence is further boosted because the other water types simply pale in comparison.

High tier:
Seismitoad- One of the few water types with early availability. Its decent stats and unique typing make it a great choice for a mixed wall of sorts. It also can scrap together a decent movepool.
Jellicent- Available mid game and is arguably one of the most useful Pokemon to come out of this generation. Great abilities, great stats, access to Night Shade, Scald, Surf, Recover, Shadow Ball, Blizzard, Energy Ball, Will-O-Wisp. It probably belongs above Seismitoad, but its availability is off-putting.

Mid tier:
Carracosta- This one I am unsure of its placement. It has good stats, abilities, and gets Shell Smash. Not sure if belongs higher or lower.
Simipour- Relatively useful for early game and is a good compliment to Tepig. However, its usefulness falls off as the game progresses, as more useful water types with better stats appear later.

Low tier:
Swanna- It can use Fly and Surf. Duckling is perhaps a decent HM slave and it's really freaking cool. Don't evolve it. Swanna's stats are too bad to make anything of itself.
Basculin- Bad stats and there are simply better choices. It's... usable though.


Bottom tier:
Alomomola- Good luck training this thing. It's an amazing wall. But that's literally all it is. It can't attack... AT ALL.

A lot of these placements can be shuffled around and this is just a crude list. I could be completely wrong here, so argue with me as much as you'd like.

UbersSuck20
09-10-2012, 06:04 AM
Why not Steel, god.

Samurott - Probably should be Water/Bug or Water/Fighting. Great mixed attacker yes, but it suffers from the fact that it cannot learn Earthquake, and that it learns it's most powerful moves very late. High Tier.
Simipour - Good mixed attacker with great speed, found really early. Mid Tier though because it's frail and it still doesn't hit hard enough.
Seismitoad - This thing has a sad story. Found early, great bulk, decent attack and Special Attack for a bulky Pokemon, but there is one thing that keeps it from being Top Tier: NOT HAVING ACCESS TO ICE MOVES, NOT EVEN BLIZZARD. High Tier.
Ba(d)sculin - Bottom Tier, no explanations needed.
Carracosta - Found pretty early. Unfortunately too slow to use Shell Smash effectively, and that move wastes it's great Defense. Curse is still decent, and it has a good Attack stat. It learns Rock Slide a bit too late, though. Mid/High tier
Swanna - Dissapointing stats, frail, only good as a HM slave. Bottom/Low Tier.
Jellicent - Great bulk and decent Special Attack, but unfortunately the best moves it learns come after the E4. Mid/High Tier.
Alomomola - Don't bother training it, it sucks horribly, only a Surf HM slave. Bottom Tier.

Dabottle
09-10-2012, 09:05 PM
The next thread has been created. You may find it here: http://superskarmory.net/forum/showthread.php?1947-Black-and-White-Type-Tiering-Day-10-Dark
This thread will remain open for discussion for two more days.

NOW LET'S CATCH UP! GO FINISH FIGHTING AND GRASS! I EXPECT AN AGREEMENT TO REACHED BY THE TIME I GET BACK FROM SCHOOL TOMORROW!

Zachgoose
09-10-2012, 09:12 PM
Guhh. Slow down. Fighting and Grass aren't even resolved, Water is a fresh and new discussion, and now we have Dark type? Maybe we shouldn't have another new type tomorrow to give us time to catch up.

Dabottle
09-10-2012, 09:18 PM
Yeah, we'll probably have to skip a day. I'll lock this until tomorrow.

EDIT: Oops, thought this was Dark. Derp. Locking that one.

UbersSuck20
09-11-2012, 06:38 PM
Carracosta- This one I am unsure of its placement. It has good stats, abilities, and gets Shell Smash. Not sure if belongs higher or lower.



I don't think Shell Smash is that great on Carracosta. It wastes his amazing defense, so yea.

Tainers14
09-12-2012, 12:47 AM
oh man. Water types break in game, I swear each water type starter is broken in game. Once they get surf it's just gggggggggggggg

Samurott - ugh this thing is so good. too bad it's ugly. Def Top tier.
Simipour - these elemental monkeys aren't that great, they have an amazing movepool, good coverage, and fall off hard late game. Not worth getting tbh, better off getting the water ground tadpole thing.
Seismitoad - water/ground types are game breaking. Only weak to grass types. who cares if it doesn't have the greatest stats? They can live anything that isn't a grass type attack. Unless it's super under leveled.
Ba(d)sculin This thing gives me nightmares, It got super hax in my nuzlocke run and killed by snivy D: I don't want to talk about it
Carracosta - This thing is ok. It's not bad but it's not good. Gets shell smash aqua jet and rock type moves. Its best moveset would be mixed, so prolly better off using that
Swanna - This thing makes pelipper look like Mewtwo. Seriously how can a pokemon be this bad? w/e
Jellicent - high tier for sure. Amazing movepool, good stats and a recovery move. What else could one ask for??????????????????
Alomomola - one of those pokemon that only people with balls use. Impossible to train but oh boy does training it pay off Walls are the funnest thing to use in game....... God tier.... jokes, idk I think everything is god tier unless it's utter crap so don't listen to me.

Those are my 2 cents.

UbersSuck20
09-12-2012, 06:42 AM
Feraligatr and Swampert don't really have the Special Attack to go ggggggggggggggggg. They need to focus on physical attacks.

Dabottle
09-12-2012, 12:46 PM
Feraligatr and Swampert don't really have the Special Attack to go ggggggggggggggggg. They need to focus on physical attacks.

Do me a favour and go play through Hoenn again. Use a Swampert, then re-evaluate your statement.
Surf is perfectly fine on Feraligatr (until you get Waterfall in Gen IV).

Water's just an excellent type overall.

UbersSuck20
09-12-2012, 02:40 PM
Swampert has 85 Special Attack which is too low.

But enough off-topic, we're debating Gen 5, not Gen 3.

Tainers14
09-12-2012, 03:33 PM
The only gyms that Swampert and it's pre-evolved form pokemon don't stomp are the second and 8th gym, those gyms it's actually an even match-up.
If you're moveset is surf ice beam, earthquake and something else that's stupidly strong.

If you're to ever solo a pokemon game, it's best to use the water type since they all get ice beam and that move is stupidly strong.

UbersSuck20
09-15-2012, 07:40 AM
The strength of a water-type doesn't lie into Ice Beam. It's just a coverage move with good power. And Swampert is a physical attacker, so Ice Punch goes over Ice Beam in his case. Same with Feraligatr.

Hell Rampardos can use Ice Beam if he wants to, it has workable Sp.Atk, but can't learn Ice Punch.

And Seismitoad cannot learn Ice Beam so how can he cover his worst nightmare? Sludge Bomb > Ice Beam against grass-types due to 30% poison chance but he cannot cover Ghetsis' Hydreigon.

Dabottle
09-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Because Ice Punch is physical in Gens II and III and feasible to give to Feraligatr in Fen IV.

>sludge bomb > ice beam

ha
haha
ha
ha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

get out

Btw, your beloved Amoonguss and Ferro take (more) damage from Ice type moves.

Not to mention the other five million reasons why Ice Beam's a better move.I know that Seismitoad doesn't get it, but that's irrelevant.

Dragonite
09-15-2012, 02:28 PM
Urgh, I haven't posted in one of these for so long and I don't really have time to go and dissect every member of this type's information anymore.

Samurott - It's a starter with pretty balanced stats and some nice Attack/Special Attack.
Simipour - It's one of the monkeys. Not bad, since you can evolve it pretty early in the game if you choose right in Castelia City, but its defenses do NOT impress anyone.
Seismitoad - This is like the reincanration of Swampert. Even though it doesn't have great stats besides HP, it can sit there and stall pretty well since it only has one weakness. No ground-type STAB moves except for maybe Dig and Bulldoze, though/
Ba(d)sculin - Goldeen wasn't that great in the first set of games, Basculin is like a Goldeen without an evolution. At least it has Aqua Jet.
Carracosta - Solid as a rock and has a really good Attack. Rock/Water typing is kind of bad, though, and it's almost always going to attack last in battle.
Swanna - I have absolutely no idea.
Jellicent - That one Cursed Body ability isn't bad, but that's all I know about it.
Alomomola - Luvdisc + Blissey, except it's a lot more like Luvdisc in battle.

UbersSuck20
09-15-2012, 02:32 PM
How is that irrelevant? Name another way besides Sludge Bomb (as I recall Sludge Wave is after the E4, if not, doesn't really matter, 5 power isn't a big difference, and 30% chance of poisoning is better than 10%) that Seismitoad can use to hit grass-types.

Not that Sludge Bomb is better in general, it's just more effective than Ice Beam when used against grass-types. 30% chance of a secondary effect is better than 10%.

@Dragonite: Seismitoad does get access to Earthquake.

Dragonite
09-15-2012, 02:38 PM
@Dragonite: Seismitoad does get access to Earthquake.

At the end of the the Relic Castle. Can you get to the end of the Relic Castle before the Elite 4? I can't remember.

Shantae
09-15-2012, 03:19 PM
At the end of the the Relic Castle. Can you get to the end of the Relic Castle before the Elite 4? I can't remember.

Yes, It's in Relic Castle but you have to beat Elite Four and N first. In general, you can get TM 26 Earthquake in post-game.

As this tier set is fine so far. So, i'll not gonna say any arugements.
Yes, Samurott should be respectively in Top Tier. It so obvious that why he dang good (Good stats, starter use, Good movepool). Seismitoad is good too, by it's early use and decent stats, yep High Tier as for now. Now for Jellicent, this pokemon is tank, good stats, good movepool, and found in mid game. Simipour is actually better than 2 monkeys, in my opinion. Carracosta is eh, fine or decent. I'm unsure about him, it isn't the best pokemon, so yeah Mid Tier. Swanna isn't the worst water Pokemon. It's just her type really makes her in Low Tier. Not much gonna say to Basculin. The only positive thing about Basculin, It has decent stats. Lastly, Alomomola. This Pokemon is worst than Swanna, as you have to get it later in game, it has bad stats, or what else. So obvious, Bottom Tier. Done.

sonriopoby123
09-15-2012, 03:21 PM
You can't. I had to wait. >.<

Guys, how is Sludgey Bomb better than Ice Beam? I mean, I get that it can't learn it, but would you really use Seismitoad aganist a Grass type? I mean, really? There are better Water types out there. Also better Ground types.

Dragonite
09-15-2012, 03:25 PM
Yes, It's in Relic Castle but you have to beat Elite Four and N first. In general, you can get TM 26 Earthquake in post-game.

I know the Sage and Volcarona only appear after the Elite 4 and Ghetsis, but it looks like you can go the the end of the castle before that. I don't think there's anything blocking you, but I've never tried, so I don't know.


As this tier set is fine so far. So, i'll not gonna say any arugements.

Me too.

sonriopoby123
09-15-2012, 03:39 PM
Don't lie. The maze has it. (http://serebii.net/pokearth/unova/reliccastle.shtml)

Dabottle
09-15-2012, 03:39 PM
There are postgame Pokémon there. You cannot, afaIk.

UbersSuck20
09-15-2012, 06:27 PM
You can't. I had to wait. >.<

Guys, how is Sludgey Bomb better than Ice Beam? I mean, I get that it can't learn it, but would you really use Seismitoad aganist a Grass type? I mean, really? There are better Water types out there. Also better Ground types.

That's due to the 30% chance of poisoning, which is better than Ice Beam's 10% chance of freezing. That only applies to grass-types however. And yes if you would pair it with that berry that weakens the grass-type attack but I'm not sure you get it pre-e4.
And would you really use Jellicent/Basculin/Alomomola/Samurott against a grass-type? Though Samurott has a stronger move for grasses than Ice Beam.

And yes you get Earthquake before E4.

sonriopoby123
09-15-2012, 06:35 PM
Stop lying. (http://serebii.net/pokearth/unova/reliccastle.shtml)

Ice
09-15-2012, 06:44 PM
No, Ubers, you cannot get Earthquake before the Elite Four. I know you would love to, but it's not how the game works, kind of like Brave Bird!Unfezant.

UbersSuck20
09-16-2012, 06:13 AM
I researched this theory and yes TM26 is after the E4. It's a shame so now Seismitoad has to rely on Mud Shot for destroying Electrics.

So maybe Seismitoad is now Mid Tier.

Ice
09-16-2012, 02:37 PM
What the hell? It still has decent stats and movepool and good availability. Not being able to kill Zebstrikas as well as it might have been able to with Earthquake is a retarded reason to want it to drop an entire tier.

UbersSuck20
09-16-2012, 06:51 PM
How is it a retarded reason? By your logic, this is just an example, I have to rely on a 40 power move(Mach Punch) to beat purrloin's, and if it doesn't even come close to OHKOing, then they can Growl.

Seismitoad doesn't have that great of an Attack either.

Dabottle
09-16-2012, 07:05 PM
>fairs better against electric types than everything else here.
>mid tier!

Ice
09-16-2012, 07:15 PM
Because you want it dropped to mid because it can't use EQ on electrics when it can actually do well against them unlike other Water types, and that the only thing it would want EQ for is Zebstrika since everything else can be taken care of through rock or water moves.