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GDItsMeInTheFlesh
05-04-2011, 11:47 PM
Hey guys! After having a discussion about Special Walls and Physical Walls earlier, I decided this needed to be made, so let's get to it!


Physical Walls

A Physical Wall usually has two things, a high base HP and a high base Def. A great example is Dusclops with Eviolite. The addition of this item in 5th Gen. is a gift from God. For those who don't know, this item increases the SpD and Def. of a Pokemon that has an evolution stage left by 50%. That being said, here's a good example:

move 1: Pain Split
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Night Shade
move 4: Confuse Ray / Disable / Toxic
nature: Calm
item: Eviolite
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe

Let's break it down, with Eviolite Dusclops has Defenses of 284/474/561. WoW will cripple the Phy. Attackers. Pain Split allows him to recover HP. Night Shade will hit with constant 100 Dmg.



Special Wall

A special wall is the same as a Physical Wall, but rather than taking Physical attacks they take Special attacks. Chansey with Eviolite is a great example, let's look:

move 1: Wish
move 2: Protect / Softboiled
move 3: Seismic Toss
move 4: Toxic
item: Eviolite
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

Chansey's Wish can fully replenish the health of Pokemon with base 105 HP Pokemon, like Rhydon. Seismic Toss and Toxic are the only ways Chansey can do real amounts of damage to both offensive and defensive Pokemon. Seismic Toss will always do 100 damage to any Pokemon, effectively 4HKOing most walls in the game.


Physical Sweeper

Physical Sweepers focus on one thing: hitting hard. Physical sweepers are meant to deal massive amounts of damage in little time. Conkeldurr is my favorite Physical Sweep, so I'll show you a good example of him:


move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Drain Punch
move 3: Mach Punch
move 4: Payback / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Guts
nature: Brave / Adamant
evs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD
ivs: 0 Spe

624 Attack and 339 Defense after a Bulk Up is nothing to screw around with, and Conkeldurr shows why. Drain Punch allows Conkeldurr to tank through the opposition by hitting the opponent hard while recovering lost health. Mach Punch gives Conkeldurr priority. Payback is to hit those pesky things that resist all of his Fighting types *cough*Shandera*cough*

Special Sweeper

A Special Sweeper is meant to do damage fast and powerfully, but with Special Attacks. A great example is Latios:

move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Dragon Pulse
move 4: Psycho Shock / Trick
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Choice Specs Latios with STAB on Draco Meteor is a MONSTER. Even those that resist it get a dent put in them. HP Fire allows Latios to deal with steel types more efficiently. Psycho Shock gives Psychic STAB. Surf complements Draco Meteor well, offensively and allow Latios to hit Pokemon like Scizor

Revenge Killer


A revenge killer is a pokemon that comes in after one of your pokemon faints to take out the opposition without getting hit. That brings us to fast pokemon with a large movepool, or at least good coverage. Or, priority users. So, we have scarfed pokemon, priority abusers, and insanely fast pokemon.

Having said that, a Weavile is a good revenge killer for dragons with Ice Shard.

Priority RK
Weavile @ Focus Sash (Or life orb)
Pressure
252 Atk. / 252 Speed / 4 Def
Jolly Nature (You don't want other guys outspeeding you and killing you would you?)
- Ice Shard
- Ice Punch
- Pursuit
- Low Kick

This guys gets sent in after one of you pokemon faints to murder the murderer. I guess that makes you a murderer as well. Then another Weavile counter would come in and become a murderer of a murderer of a murderer. Gah. Ice Shard is all you need. Dragon Dance all you want, Ice Shard has priority! Ice Punch for STAB as well, Pursuit if they for whatever reason, may switch out. Low Kick for STAB and coverage.


Leads, Anti-Leads, and Anti-Anti-Leads

Hazards Leads are simple. They set up entry hazards, and then go down fighting while dishing out as much damage as possible. They may carry Taunt to prevent other leads from setting up.

Example:
Azelf @ Focus Sash
Levitate
4 HP / 252 Atk (Or SAtk) / 252 Spe
Jolly/Timid/Adamant/Modest
-Taunt
-Stealth Rock
-(Input attack move of choice)
-" "

I won't explain this guy. You all know him.

Anti-Leads are Leads designed to counter Suicide Leads and other Leads, and set up their own entry hazards at the same time. There are many types of Anti-Leads, but you more often see two kinds: The Bulky Kind and the Not-Bulky-Ima-Sweep-Ur-Team-Kind. From what I see, an Anti-Lead is basically the same as a Suicide Lead, but I guess the metagame flung them into the fray for a reason. They completely counter most other Suicide Leads. Hence the Anti part.

Bulky Anti-Lead
Swampert @ Leftover
Torrent (To some random extend, Damp)
(Input Bulky EV spread of your choice)
(Input Nature of your choice, most likely Brave)
-Stealth Rock
-(Depends one Swampert set. Curse set, or Ima-try to murder you set)
-" "
-" "

You seldom see them nowadays, but they had their uses. Other Bulky Anti-Leads include Metagross, Tyrannitar, Hippowdon. They cannot be taken down in one hit unless by an extremely powerful super effective move, but have the capabilities to take a Suicide lead down in one hit. Of course, they have to be careful of Taunt if they want to set up, but eh.

Ima-Sweep-Ur-team-Anti-Lead
Thundurus @ Focus Sash
Prankster
4HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Taunt
-Nasty Plot
-Thunderbolt / HP [Ice] / Focus Blast / Grass Knot
-Thunderbolt / HP [Ice] / Focus Blast / Grass Knot

Priority Taunt make sure you Taunt other before you get Taunted, or before they set up on you. They they would either hit you (That's where the Sash comes in), or switch out (That's where Nasty Plot comes in).

Sooo.... Anti-Leads only counter a selected varity of other Suicide Leads, not the entire chunk, so don't expect your Anti-Lead to pwn the metagame.



Now to the Anti-Anti-Leads. They are used mainly to stop Anti-Leads, but can take Suicide Leads as well. When taking Suicide Leads, they mainly allow the Suicide Lead to set up, but proceed to screw with them afterwards.

Anti-Anti-Lead Example #1
Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Prankster
(Defensive EV spread)
(Some random Nature)
-Taunt / Encore
-Leech Seed
-Substitute
-(Move of your choice, probably an attacking move, or you'd be Taunt Bait)

You could choose Taunt, to straight out prevent the opposition from setting up, or Encore, to screw them up and force a switch. Here's how the Encore set works (You obviously know the Taunt Set). First Turn, you doing something that no one else cares while they throw their rocks. The next turn, you hit them with priority Encore, forcing a switch on the next turn, where you get a free Leech Seed, Tailwind, whatever.

Anti-Anti-Lead Example #2
Breloom @ Focus Sash
Technician
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly nature
-Spore
-Bullet Seed
-Mach Punch
-Focus Punch / Rock Tomb / Stone Edge / (Random Move that you like)

The Sash makes sure you get to spore the enemy if they decide to attack you. Breloom doesn't have the speed to stop the rocks or spikes from coming, so you might want to pair him with a spinner. If you think that they will Taunt you, skip the spore and go straight to Bullet Seed. It breaks Sashs and packs a punch. Technician Bullet Seed is something to be feared. After the spore, you can proceed to hit the switch hard with a powerful Focus Punch, or slow it down with Rock Tomb(Technician again).



Thanks to CloudNine for helping out!

dameenmachine
05-05-2011, 04:46 AM
wow those are really good pokemon

i think ferrothorn is also a pretty good wall. its not a pure physical or special wall but overall it covers both well and doesnt have many weaknesses

PokemonRules!
05-05-2011, 03:30 PM
Rapid Spinners, Baton Passers, Leads and Entry Hazard Pokémon are parts of team roles too.
But good thread, I like Porygon2 since it was a really good Poké in 4th Gen, and with the Eviolite, it is even better.

GDItsMeInTheFlesh
05-05-2011, 06:26 PM
Yup, I plan to add them later. And Hazers and Phazers

dameenmachine
05-05-2011, 11:01 PM
what are hazers and phazers?

Wixer
05-06-2011, 03:06 AM
Entry Hazard pokes set down stealth rock/ spikes/ toxic spikes which are kinda like traps that harm pokemon that come into battle. Of course their is a way to nullify these effect, this is were Rapid Spinners come in. They basically get rid of the hazards using rapid spin. A good example of entry hazard pokes are Hippowdon and Skarmory who can lay down stealth rock and then use Roar/Whirlwind to cause the the opponent to switch pokemon which again triggers the entry hazards. Forretress can learn all three hazard moves plus rapid spin.

PokemonRules!
05-06-2011, 04:22 PM
So Hazers=Entry Hazard Pokémon,
And Phazers=Anti Entry Hazard Pokémon.
Hence the 'Haz'.

dameenmachine
05-06-2011, 10:46 PM
ooo ok i got it now
Thanks!

CloudNine
05-07-2011, 04:52 AM
Team Roles also have Suicide Leads, and Anti-Leads, and following the current trends, Anti-Anti-Leads.

Hazards Leads are simple. They set up entry hazards, and then go down fighting while dishing out as much damage as possible. They may carry Taunt to prevent other leads from setting up.

Example:
Azelf @ Focus Sash
Levitate
4 HP / 252 Atk (Or SAtk) / 252 Spe
Jolly/Timid/Adamant/Modest
-Taunt
-Stealth Rock
-(Input attack move of choice)
-" "

I won't explain this guy. You all know him.

Anti-Leads are Leads designed to counter Suicide Leads and other Leads, and set up their own entry hazards at the same time. There are many types of Anti-Leads, but you more often see two kinds: The Bulky Kind and the Not-Bulky-Ima-Sweep-Ur-Team-Kind. From what I see, an Anti-Lead is basically the same as a Suicide Lead, but I guess the metagame flung them into the fray for a reason. They completely counter most other Suicide Leads. Hence the Anti part.

Bulky Anti-Lead
Swampert @ Leftover
Torrent (To some random extend, Damp)
(Input Bulky EV spread of your choice)
(Input Nature of your choice, most likely Brave)
-Stealth Rock
-(Depends one Swampert set. Curse set, or Ima-try to murder you set)
-" "
-" "

You seldom see them nowadays, but they had their uses. Other Bulky Anti-Leads include Metagross, Tyrannitar, Hippowdon. They cannot be taken down in one hit unless by an extremely powerful super effective move, but have the capabilities to take a Suicide lead down in one hit. Of course, they have to be careful of Taunt if they want to set up, but eh.

Ima-Sweep-Ur-team-Anti-Lead
Thundurus @ Focus Sash
Prankster
4HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Taunt
-Nasty Plot
-Thunderbolt / HP [Ice] / Focus Blast / Grass Knot
-" "

Priority Taunt make sure you Taunt other before you get Taunted, or before they set up on you. They they would either hit you (That's where the Sash comes in), or switch out (That's where Nasty Plot comes in).

Sooo.... Anti-Leads only counter a selected varity of other Suicide Leads, not the entire chunk, so don't expect your Anti-Lead to pwn the metagame.

Now to the Anti-Anti-Leads. They are used mainly to stop Anti-Leads, but can take Suicide Leads as well. When taking Suicide Leads, they mainly allow the Suicide Lead to set up, but proceed to screw with them afterwards.

Anti-Anti-Lead Example #1
Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Prankster
(Defensive EV spread)
(Some random Nature)
-Taunt / Encore
-Leech Seed
-Substitute
-(Move of your choice, probably an attacking move, or you'd be Taunt Bait)

You could choose Taunt, to straight out prevent the opposition from setting up, or Encore, to screw them up and force a switch. Here's how the Encore set works (You obviously know the Taunt Set). First Turn, you doing something that no one else cares while they throw their rocks. The next turn, you hit them with priority Encore, forcing a switch on the next turn, where you get a free Leech Seed, Tailwind, whatever.

Anti-Anti-Lead Example #2
Breloom @ Focus Sash
Technician
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly nature
-Spore
-Bullet Seed
-Mach Punch
-Focus Punch / Rock Tomb / Stone Edge / (Random Move that you like)

The Sash makes sure you get to spore the enemy if they decide to attack you. Breloom doesn't have the speed to stop the rocks or spikes from coming, so you might want to pair him with a spinner. If you think that they will Taunt you, skip the spore and go straight to Bullet Seed. It breaks Sashs and packs a punch. Technician Bullet Seed is something to be feared. After the spore, you can proceed to hit the switch hard with a powerful Focus Punch, or slow it down with Rock Tomb(Technician again).




I might add more when I feel like it, until then~

PS. How did TAO get himself banned?

tjoo
05-07-2011, 08:26 AM
awsome teams!

CloudNine
05-07-2011, 09:09 AM
^^ Spam. This isn't a team, is a discussion thread. Moving on to revenge killers, here we go:

A revenge killer is a pokemon that comes in after one of your pokemon faints to take out the opposition without getting hit. That brings us to fast pokemon with a large movepool, or at least good coverage. Or, priority users. So, we have scarfed pokemon, priority abusers, and insanely fast pokemon.

Having said that, a Weavile is a good revenge killer for dragons with Ice Shard.
Priority RKs
Weavile @ Focus Sash (Or life orb)
(Whatever ability, really, who gives a dam)
(Max Attack and Spd. Duh. What, you want max defence to survive a Mach Punch? Dream on.)
Jolly Nature (You don't want other guys outspeeding you and killing you would you?)
-Ice Shard
-(Blah, you don't need to know)
-" "
-" "

This guys gets sent in after one of you pokemon faints to murder the murderer. I guess that makes you a murderer as well. Then another Weavile counter would come in and become a murderer of a murderer of a murderer. Gah. Ice Shard is all you need. Dragon Dance all you want, Ice Shard has priority!

Scarfed RKs
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Imposter(Yay for super ability!)
(Max HP. The rest doesn't matter.)
(Who gives a dam about the ability. Unless they introduce an ability to increase HP, he can have quirky for all I care.)
(Uh... you don't need the moveset do you?)

No need for explanations. The name says it all.

Insanely fast RKs
Excadrill. In sandstorm. He also works as a late game sweeper. Gah. I'll go on to that when I feel like it. No need for movesets or spread. Everyone knows Excadrills.

OH WAIT! The trapping revenge killers. Probably the best out there, we have:
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf

or
Dugtrio @ Something that increases his attack








... I got bored.
Lets touch on checks and counters.
Counters are pokemon that can be safely sent on an attack and soak it up. After that they can proceed to kill the enemy or force a switch. Since every hates it, I shall give an example of a counter and the pokemon it counters. Magnezone > Ferrothorn / Skarmory / Forretress / Scizor
Magnezone with magnet pull can comfortably switch in an any of their attacks barring whirlwind from Skarmory and Superpower from Scizor, then proceed to trap, wall, and kill them. With enough speed EVs and a right nature, he will outspeed Adamant Scizor, and proceed to OHKO with HP [Fire]. He can throw a Sub in Forretress and Ferrothorn's faces and then kill them while they gasp in horror as their Gyroballs fail to break your Sub. For Skarmory, you can decide to throw a Sub and risk getting blown away by whirlwind, wasting 1/4 of your health, or just kill it with an attack of your choice.
As everyone knows, there are no true counters for Garchomp, unlike Ferrothorn, so the best way to stop it is by revenge killing. Excadrill, another pain in the ***, is countered by bulky water types that carry a super effective move, and can be revenge killed by Breloom's or Conkeldurr's Mach Punch. Aqua Jet does the job too. If you find that a pokemon has been annoying you a lot, simply find a counter for it. Like me. I HATE FERROTHORN.

Checks are Pokemon that can switch into a move, like counters, and soak it up. They then checks to see what it does next, effectively learning the moveset, or item, sometimes both that it is running. Sometimes, you might even force a switch. Checks and Counters are like the same actually. A check to Lucario would be Gliscor. He can switch in on a close combat, then protects the next turn to see what it does next. Garchomp can be "checked" too, but not many pokemon would like to switch in on any of its moves.

PKMNbattleSchemes
05-07-2011, 09:50 AM
Sandslash= the best rapid spinner........ever

PokemonRules!
05-07-2011, 09:54 AM
Ooh, my friend showed me a good Anti-Lead:
Spiritomb@Lum Berry
252 HP, 4 Att, 252 SpA
-Shadow Sneak
-Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
-Will-o-Wisp
-Hidden Power[Fighting]
Works pretty good.

CloudNine
05-07-2011, 10:19 AM
Sandslash= the best rapid spinner........ever

Donphan completely outclasses Sandslash.

PKMNbattleSchemes
05-07-2011, 10:44 AM
thats why he is the best.............sand rush FTW

PokemonRules!
05-07-2011, 10:59 AM
That doesn't make sense.
Sandshrew is outclassed by Donphan, and Forretress outclasses them both.
IMO though.

CloudNine
05-07-2011, 11:09 AM
Forretress = Magnezone Bait
Donphan has STAB earthquake, Priority Ice Shard

PokemonRules!
05-07-2011, 11:20 AM
But it gets Earthquake.

CloudNine
05-07-2011, 11:31 AM
Forretress = Magnezone Bait
Donphan has STAB earthquake, Priority Ice Shard

And, has a wider moveset. I'm bored again, so expect some stuff on Late-Game Sweepers. Oh, if your talking about SandRush Rapid spinner then we have Excadrill.

PKMNbattleSchemes
05-07-2011, 02:15 PM
it was a joke sheesh xD
but sandslash does get a few moves that excadrill dosen't
plus excadrill is week to fighting where sandslash isn't
but really everyone runs sand rush excadrill anyway

GDItsMeInTheFlesh
05-07-2011, 02:58 PM
Cloud, I'm gonna edit your stuff into the OP :P thank for helping out :D

CloudNine
05-08-2011, 12:26 AM
Sure. Oh, and Weavile does not get STAB on low kick. And a revenge killer for Weavile is a Mach Puncher, not another Weavile.

PokemonRules!
05-08-2011, 11:23 AM
Wweavile is so fragile it doesn't matter.
Even Skarmory is a counter.

CloudNine
05-08-2011, 12:50 PM
So true. Then comes Magnezone and ahhh...

PKMNbattleSchemes
05-08-2011, 01:39 PM
to counter weavile you just need to check two things
can you survive a hit
and can you deliver a fatal blow in response

PokemonRules!
05-08-2011, 03:58 PM
No, you just need to survive a hit.
It is so fragile your blow doesn't have to be fatal

CloudNine
05-09-2011, 07:46 AM
Late Game Sweepers!

First off, what are Late Game Sweeper. Late Game Sweepers are uhhh... self explanatory, but for the sake of it, Late Game Sweepers come in somewhere end game and clean up the opponent's remaining pokemon. Hence the name Sweeper. Late Game Sweepers tend to be relatively fast, but not too frail, and have a good attacking stats. Or be insanely fast and have good attacking stats and coverage. A good example would be Garchomp or Salamence. Too fast, and they wouldn't have the bulk to take hit. Too slow and, well, they'd be taking too much hits for their own good. Swift Swim Kingdra and Sand Rush Excadrill. They are, insanely fast, and can take priority, barring Mach Punch for Excadrill. If you use common sense, you'd see that Weavile, although very fast and has a good attack stat, cannot be a late game sweeper.
On another note, Late Game Sweepers come out late because:
1)They would get walled by common walls early in the game, and only come out when the walls are dead.
2)A threat to them might be on the opponent's team, like a Weavile or Mamoswine, who can be sent out to revenge kill your Dragon while they are busy "Outraging".

Some late game sweepers:
Salamence @ Life Orb / Leftovers / (Input useless item here)
Moxie (recommended) / Intimidate
4 HP / 252Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Fang / Fire Blast

Excadrill (Basic Set, no rapid spin though)

Hitmonlee @ Normal Gem
Unburden
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly (He's already insanely fast, but you need to outspeed Adamant Excadrills)
-Fake Out
-Hi Jump Kick
-Stone Edge
-Blaze Kick / Pursuit

As you can see, all these guys get hindered by walls, that's why they only come out and play once those walls are dead. NOWWWWWW!!!! Onto Lures!

What is a Lure?
A lure is a pokemon that does one of these things:
1)Lure an opponent's pokemon out, then kill it with an unexpected move.
2)Lure an opponent's pokemon out, then switch to something that counters it, getting yourself a free set-up while they switch.
3)Lure an attack, then switch to something that benefits from it. Eg. Gyarados lures Thunderbolt, you switch to Electivire and activate Motor Drive.

Lures work well with revenge killers.
Eg#1 I send out Salamence(As a lure). Opp switches to a steel type, most likely Ferrothorn. I Dragon Dance instead of the expected Outrage. (Trust me. They'd expect outrage.) Next turn I proceed to kill it with a Fire Attack.

Eg#2 Same as before, except I switch to Magnezone and trap it, then kill it.

Eg#3 Same again, except I switch to Volcarona and Quiver Dance.

PokemonRules!
05-09-2011, 03:59 PM
I have won so many battles with the Gyara-Electivre combo.

CloudNine
05-10-2011, 06:54 AM
I noticed that the explanation for Walls were wrong, so here:

Wall:
A wall is a Pokemon that has great defences, and measly attack and speed stats. Most of the time, they are mixed, being about to wall both ends of the spectrum. They usually carry moves like Toxic / Will-o-wisp with them, because of their pathetic attack stats. Sometimes, they also have attacks like Seismic Toss and Night Shade as damaging moves. Most carry a reliable recover move. Walls, are usually mixed, but there are some exceptions, mostly Blissey as an example.
An example of a mixed wall would be Shuckle or Dusclops.

Tanks:
Tanks are different from wall in the sense that they 'bulky', not that wallish, and have a usable attack stat. They are usually mixed as well, and can be a pain to take down. They sometimes carry recovery moves, and usually rely on high power attacking moves to make up for their attack stats.
Example include Ferrothorn, Swampert, bulky Dragonite, Hippowdon.
One-sided tanks include Gliscor, Forretress, Skarmory.

Stallers:
Stallers are one of the most annoying pokemon around, but they are dying out. Stalls are simple. Let residue damage get the opponent, while you take little or no damage. Stalls, however, can be easily stopped by Taunt, so some Stallers carry an attacking move like U-turn. The ever famous StallRein in 4th Gen is an example of a Staller, as well as the annoying Whimsicott is 5th gen. Staller carry the moves Protect and/or Substitute, and can make anyone rage quit. Yet, stalls are a dying race because: When your Pokemon has an extra moveslot, you think for a bit, then say, "Might as well chuck Taunt in."

Vash
05-10-2011, 12:45 PM
Guys, just to be clear. Pokemon that set up Hazards are utility Pokemon. Hazers are Pokemon that make the opponent lose all of their stat changes either through the use of Haze or Clear Smog. Pseudo-hazers make the opponent lose their stat changes by forcing a switch with Roar, Whirlwind, Dragon Tail and Circle Throw.

CloudNine
05-10-2011, 01:04 PM
I'll talk about those tomorrow. I have a Physics test tomorrow, and I would only pass it if I don't study. I need at least 75%!

PokemonRules!
05-10-2011, 06:37 PM
You would only pass if you don't study?
If only my life was like that...