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cat
04-30-2009, 02:11 AM
Recently two major tournys have begun, the TU official tourny and Carlo's tourny. The unfortunate thing about both these tournys is they use the TU tier list. while the TU tier list itself is not bad, there are some things in it I disagree with. by the title of this thread I'm sure you've guess it is Latias' tier placement that I have the biggest problem with. I just don't get it, to me latias is a good solid OU pokemon. I really haven't seen any proof that latias breaks the metagame.

what I'm really asking you to do here is to convince me otherwise, and no, "Latias is gay" is not an acceptable argument. the way I see it is if you can't convince me why it is broken in OU then you don't actually know yourself, and why should we ban something when we don't even know why we think its broken? please read this thread carefully and think over this before you make a decision. even though i would really like to see it in OU, I'm not going to vote until I've heard everyone's argument. I'm going to keep an open mind about this subject and you should too, don't come into this with a preemptive ban hammer for Latias.

Please take this seriously and lets have a good and intelligent discussion!

Shadow_Blaze
04-30-2009, 01:36 PM
I agree that Latias is indeed an invaluable OU option, with the ability to serve a team in so many ways (be it support or offensive). Latias can be easily broken down by several sweepers and walls alike, granted if she sets up her full payload then she might seem quite fearsome, but not Uber in the least. I think Latias would be a good challenge for the metagame, we ca always use a new option.

i am cool
04-30-2009, 03:25 PM
A new option? A new option for what? Overcentralization?

Yes, you're reading correctly.

Look at the rise of Steel-types in the current metagame...The centralization led to people making Teams that are used solely for being Anti-metagame teams through the breaking of Steel-types and Dragon-types...More Dragon-types rises the amount of Steel-types in the metagame and makes it more centralized.

Shadow_Blaze
04-30-2009, 05:18 PM
So we are discriminating against Dragon-Types now? If so then Flygon and most definitely Salamence would have to be removed from the metagame as well. Simply an undeniably useful pokemon usage in a metagame that would better suit it is hardly productive in terms of metagame advancement.

Speaking of the potential Team Uber Metagame, Dolphist, Ryuvolt and Bumbarous dispatch Steel-Types with great ease and efficiency, this can provide a level playing field allowing Latias to prove her worth in this metagame. Just a thought, Pandom is a great hindrance to Latias' playability, thus making her rather harmless to an opposing team with the aforementioned Pandom.

i am cool
04-30-2009, 07:04 PM
...Flygon is nothing comparable to Latias. Flygon can handle Steel-types with Earthquake and Fire Blast, the same applies to Salamence. This means other Counters are used to defeat such Pokemon, and if you see Steel-types being used to counter them it means that the oppoenents knows said Dragon-types will use Outrage forcing a prediciton war.

However, Latias has really nothing to cover bulky Steel-types or Tyranitar. It makes the metagame more dominated around Dragon and Steel-types. I'm guessing what you're not getting is why we shouldn't add Latias and why we shouldn't ban other Dragons. Well, the answer lies that we have enough Dragons...So I guess you should Ban Salamence to let Latias enter if you want balance (even then, we still won't have "real" balance), however, Latias is the most broken of the Dragon-types IMO.

Milos
04-30-2009, 08:27 PM
this is what differs Latias from Salamence and other OU Dragons. While Flygon, Salamence, and all those Dragons do have a wider movepool and stronger attacks, they lacks many things that Latias has. Not only is Latias the fastest OU Dragon, but it can be bulky and offensive at the same time. Salamence can only beat Latias one on one if it has a DD under its belt. Salamence cant constantly switch in because of its weakness to stealth rock. Salamence cannot survive a ScarfTran HP ice. Latias takes neutral from SR, will never be OHKO'd by ScarfTran's HP ice, and Latias is not weak to Stone Edge. Even though Salamence can take physical hits better than Latias(with intimidate) it cant even compare to the monstrous special defense of Latias. Latias can CM, something Salamence cannot. Latias can also Thunderwave, something Salamence cannot. Fygon doesnt have a weakness to SR or Stone Edge, but is still 4x weak to ice. Flygon is hindered by its speed, which is the slowest out of the OU Dragons. It needs a Choice Scarf or Choice Band to have any chance of sweeping. Choice Band variants are easily taken care of, while scarf variants can be dealth with if theyre stuck on Fire Blast or Earthquake. Kingdra can outspeed Latias and KO with Outrage, but if it doesnt get the rain support it needs, its useless. Also Latias makes the game overcentralized like iac said because common counters to Latias are Pokemon like Scizor and Tyranitar who pursuit the **** out of poor lati. Scizor is taken care of by Heatran or Zapdos, hence why theyre on every team, and Tyranitar gets taken care of by Scizor, making Scizor even more over used. All in all, Latias overcentralizes the metagame and thats why it shouldnt be here.

cat
04-30-2009, 10:31 PM
first off I am disappointed that the four of you did not wait until we were further into the discussion to cast your votes, this just shows you are completely unopen to new ideas. normally i wouldnt bother countering the arguments of such people buti will for the sake of those who have not yet cast their votes.


A new option?

yes

A new option for what?

latias

Overcentralization?

no, latias

Yes, you're reading correctly.

what?

Look at the rise of Steel-types in the current metagame...The centralization led to people making Teams that are used solely for being Anti-metagame teams through the breaking of Steel-types and Dragon-types...More Dragon-types rises the amount of Steel-types in the metagame and makes it more centralized.

Your argument is sloppy. centraliztion is only a reason for a ban in the most extreme cases, and in no way has latias' arival into OU caused such a huge metgame shift that we cant classify it anymore that "slightly centralizing". when you look at the top two steels in the metagame, scizor and heatran (1st and 3rd in usage respectively), you should be able to tell this was not the fault of latias. scizor had been #1 in usage long before latias was released into OU and of all the steels heatran is one of the worst OU to switch into latias. also, with the arival of latias it doesnt seem that infernape ( a pokemon who was expected to fall down to the 20-30's in usage) has gotten any less play time. infact infernape's usage is still higher than latias'. there will always be people who make anti-metagame teams, its because they cant play the metagame. so really, i see the overcentraliztion argument rather void, people use dragon and steel types not because they are good at countering latias, but because they are inherently powerful pokemon, but not to the point that they need to be banned from competitive play.


...Flygon is nothing comparable to Latias. Flygon can handle Steel-types with Earthquake and Fire Blast,

you even say it yourself, flygon is nothing comparable to latias. so stop comparing them. flygon is first and foremost a scout, not a sweeper. when hes throwing off attacks from 299 att stat there is a lot that can just come in and just soak up the damage. people are not going to send in their metagross to take the attack because its just not worth it when swampert is at the disposal.

the same applies to Salamence.

ehh not really. steel type can switch into salamence without too much fear. sure, salamence has the possibility to use earthquake as you switch in heatran or fire blast as you switch in skarm, but why take the chance? the fact of the matter is, SR+LO+possible sandstorm means salamence sure isnt going to get too many chances to make his move. a smart salamence user will fire off draco meteor as soon as possible because they know that most of the time they will be doing very significant damage. steel users will find comfort in this and take advantage. [/b]

This means other Counters are used to defeat such Pokemon, and if you see Steel-types being used to counter them it means that the oppoenents knows said Dragon-types will use Outrage forcing a prediciton war.

who says prediction wars are a bad thing? last time i checked prediction is a huge part of pokemon.

However, Latias has really nothing to cover bulky Steel-types or Tyranitar.

actaully when game freak made latias they gave her this cool move called surf, its super effective aginst rock pokemon (like tyranitar) and if steel pokemon are using their evs in def. then surf can pack a real PUNCH!

It makes the metagame more dominated around Dragon and Steel-types. I'm guessing what you're not getting is why we shouldn't add Latias and why we shouldn't ban other Dragons. Well, the answer lies that we have enough Dragons...So I guess you should Ban Salamence to let Latias enter if you want balance (even then, we still won't have "real" balance), however, Latias is the most broken of the Dragon-types IMO.

this is one of the worst arguments i have ever heard. you think the metagame has enough dragons, so what? you would prefer to have less dragons in the metagame, but when it comes to making tiers, what does this matter? i have said before that making the "most ballanced" metagame is not what we should try to do, instead we need to make the least unballanced metagame. if you go to any competitive game the goal is to maintain a competitive metagame while making the minimum number of bans possible. it should be no different in pokemon. so you don't like that dragons are some of the most powerful pokemon, who cares?

ill tackle milos' post later, im kinda tired and just want to hang out on shoddy.

Dimes
04-30-2009, 10:32 PM
Pandom says hi.

Tyranitar says hi.

Heatran says Hi.

Registeel says hi

like Salamence, you need to know the set. Just because it can hurt a good amount of the metagame doesn't mean OMG OOBARZ. 1/2 can't take Specs Surf? Blissey can. Latias also can't take toxic well without psycho shift, and CMer needs recovery in order to tank, meaning you have either Hp [Fire] or Surf. Surf means lol Metagross, lol Magnezone, lol Rotom appliance. While no surf means WALLED NUB.

many of these counters were and are common today, so I don't see why it's uber.

Boats and Hoes
05-01-2009, 05:44 AM
Voted OU mostly because i think that scizor and ttar, amoung others **** latias. Also having an infernape check in the metagame is nice

i am cool
05-01-2009, 06:45 AM
You people are still on the "it can be countered it should be let in" argument. What about its effects on the metagame?

Cat, I said it adds more overcentralization, and it's the most one liable to banning. Seriously, before Latias Scizor compiled 21% of the Metagame...now it's 31% of the metagame. The 10% increase might look small, but it's giganticly huge in-terms of a metagame.

And here's a little cute option Latias can run to defeat its counters: Surf / Hidden Power Fire. So, it's not really that "counterable". Especially if a player is playing conservatively and finds out what Latias counter the opponent is packing to defeat it.

I know this applies to almost every Pokemon, especially Salamence; but Latias has, as Milos said, more versatility. In addition, Latias isn't offerring anything other than overcentralization. Salamence offered the distruction of stall...Latias just adds every centralizing metagame trend possible.

Edit: Funny how you say you're going to be open-minded and then you claim that there is no fallaciousness in any of the posts that the people who voted Uber have made.

Boats and Hoes
05-01-2009, 02:05 PM
My only argument is that latias wont overcentralize as metagross and scizor (along with ttar) are popular regardless and will check latias. its not like latias counters are one dimensional and exist only to counter that specific poke (like tenta as an ape counter:why would you use it over forrey unless you need an ape counter).

Dimes
05-01-2009, 08:51 PM
You people are still on the "it can be countered it should be let in" argument. What about its effects on the metagame?

Cat, I said it adds more overcentralization, and it's the most one liable to banning. Seriously, before Latias Scizor compiled 21% of the Metagame...now it's 31% of the metagame. The 10% increase might look small, but it's giganticly huge in-terms of a metagame.

And here's a little cute option Latias can run to defeat its counters: Surf / Hidden Power Fire. So, it's not really that "counterable". Especially if a player is playing conservatively and finds out what Latias counter the opponent is packing to defeat it.

I know this applies to almost every Pokemon, especially Salamence; but Latias has, as Milos said, more versatility. In addition, Latias isn't offerring anything other than overcentralization. Salamence offered the distruction of stall...Latias just adds every centralizing metagame trend possible.

Edit: Funny how you say you're going to be open-minded and then you claim that there is no fallaciousness in any of the posts that the people who voted Uber have made.


I've said that option too. But we might as well say

OMG BAN SALAMENCE IT IS TOO HARD TO COUNTER

You are repeating the same thing over on how it affects the metagame. The counters of Latias were popular to begin with, and it isn'yt unpredictable. Only novelty teams will have CBlatias, and not many people use Specs. And Latias needs CM and recover in order to be it's best. That only leaves 2 moves and only a blind man would not choose Dragon Pulse. Meaning that you are walled by either Metagross, or you can be walled by Heatran.

i am cool
05-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Let's also start suspect testing because Smogon are doing it!

Woot!

Milos
05-09-2009, 05:05 PM
cat care to "tackle my post"?

Scimjara
05-11-2009, 03:19 AM
I personally think latias is trash and should jus keep it in OU. People say how its suicune on crack hells no life orb cune obtained its sheen again